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Author Topic:   Is the TOE falsifiable and if it was, would it advance Biblical Creationism
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4141 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 61 of 169 (344016)
08-27-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Faith
08-27-2006 12:13 PM


Re: A puzzle
The point was that the ToE as a whole would not be challenged. You do understand that creationism challenges it as a whole.
sure it would, something found that it says wouldn't be there would challenge it.
creationism doesn't challege ToE as a whole, it isn't even in the same room with the ToE, you can't challenge something you can't understand, all you can do is make a strawman to fight and claim you win.
as per the topic: the fact that if the ToE was falsafied, creationism would still remain irrelevent to science, creationism can't even come up with one unified answer to anything.
ID is built on the assuption that Evolution is defaulted to the realm of the impossible from the start, even the leaders of the ID movement say so
as for YEC itself, if you can't even be bothered to read how floods work and how sediment is layed down and how limestone is formed, anyone who knows anything about these things will take the YEC belief as nothing more than hokum
Edited by ReverendDG, : more OT stuff
Edited by ReverendDG, : No reason given.
Edited by ReverendDG, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Faith, posted 08-27-2006 12:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4141 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 63 of 169 (344033)
08-27-2006 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by tudwell
08-27-2006 6:31 PM


Re: A puzzle
What makes the Bible any more reliable than, say, the Aeneid?
i can answer that for you, she believes the bible, she doesn't believe the aenid. thats pretty much it
read back on any posts were anyone points out that the stories in the bible are pretty much just like any other mythology, every creationist anyone points this out to ignores it, purely on the fact that they believe the bible
Edited by ReverendDG, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by tudwell, posted 08-27-2006 6:31 PM tudwell has not replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4141 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 80 of 169 (344157)
08-28-2006 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
08-28-2006 2:24 AM


Re: Rationalizing Dinosaurs
However, I was no doubt being too cynical in saying humans in the Jurassic wouldn't be much of a problem to rationalize away either. Maybe that would in fact be a real problem for the ToE.
well it would be a huge problem for ToE if humans appeared before thier ancesters, can't have the decendent before the parent can you?
as for dinosaurs existing long after 65 mya, it might be possible but not likely considering the enviriment has changed so much, both plant eaters and meat eaters would die off without the proper food they need, i doubt a large population would survive, since one of the ways they died off was mammals eatting the eggs and young, it would be hard for them to adapt to the tempeture and so forth
The whole time table being purely imaginative and hypothetical, it's no problem to re-organize it as needed to accommodate this sort of thing.
its not though its based on many things if you go read about it, from ice cores to argon-dating etc, handwaving away science doesn't make it useless
But I do think finding a human in the Carboniferous might do it. The problem with that is the odds: the lower strata represent marine life caught in the Flood as opposed to land life. I guess some humans COULD have been out on the water at the time of the flood, drowned at sea and been sucked into a lower layer along with the more primitive marine life. Could have happened I guess, but finding the few that happened to on the entire planet is a mathematically unpromising prospect.
yes and you still need to learn about floods, you just do not understand floods do not work this way, there would be no layers if it was a flood, everything would be jumbled up not found in layers that show calm waters and land, with all kinds of signs of life that show no huge floods - i mean layers show termite nests! if it was a worldwide flood it wouldn't show them it would erase them
theres worm holes in the ground theres foot prints in more than one layer
floods do not do this it is impossible
if you have real evidence show the possiblity i'd love to see it, other wise all you have is worse speculation than anything you claim the evolutionary scientists have
Nevertheless God is sovereign over all these things and maybe He'll allow us eventually to discover the evidence that will set the ToE on its ear.
no i think he would put YEC on it's ear for fooling people into thinking that YEC is possible via the physical laws he created, i doubt he likes all this legistic nonsense YECs confess to

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 Message 78 by Faith, posted 08-28-2006 2:24 AM Faith has not replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4141 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 88 of 169 (344174)
08-28-2006 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by obvious Child
08-28-2006 2:51 AM


Re: American fundamentalism
Archer Opterix, not to sure about that. Kansas's recent crusade aganist evolution and science in general brought mockery from many different nations and cultures. Kansas became the laughing stock of the world for openly supporting literal creation. While that is one state, more then a few would like to follow it.
speaking as bloke from kansas (i wanted to use the word )
i pity the rest of my state and continue to vote for any laws repealing anything having to do with teaching creationism or ID
though i do love the FSM and i laugh at the morons that think eather ID or creationism of any form is good for my state

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by obvious Child, posted 08-28-2006 2:51 AM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by obvious Child, posted 08-29-2006 11:23 PM ReverendDG has replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4141 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 94 of 169 (344188)
08-28-2006 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Hughes
08-28-2006 3:03 AM


The problem is that evolutionary theory has evolved to become more than a theory. It's a philosophy. And philosophies can't be falsified
evidence for this? its not remotely a philosophy in the sense you are using it, we use philosophy to frame science, but ToE is a theory not a philosophy, i'm not sure do you know what philosophies are?
For if humans were found in lower strata, then evolutionary theory would adjust to say that the pre-cursors to humans are there, but didn't fossilize or haven't been found yet.
go read a few books on ToE, the theory can't do what you are claiming, if we are descended from an ape-like creature going down to the first mammals as the thoery saidwe are, there is no way the thoery can adjust to the fossil of a man being in strata before the many anscesters existed.
ok as an example if we found fossils of humans in strata with ONLY spineless animals and nothing higher the theory would be false since it says we wouldn't find an animal with a spine before spines deveopled
OR if speciation was found to have solid limits, then the theory would simply say that we've not given it enough time, that the fossil record indicates otherwise.
guess what? thats not how it works, we find maybe the tail-end of speciation and can re-classify it, but we will never see natural speciation in real-time, speciation can be seen in labs but that is not natural speciation - this has no limits, what could the limit be?
if there was it would falsify the theory
So, while true scientific theories are falsifiable, philosophies are not. A great example of this, is the fact that it's now illegal to bring up said difficulties of evolutionary theory in the high school science classroom in Dover.
evidence of this? you have no basis for this claim, the court ruled that ID was not science and should not be taught in schools. it will never be illegal to bring up problems you have with ToE, but don't expect people to play nice if your problems with it are not problems or are strawman of the theory, since this is your misunderstanding the theory and not the theory itself - Your "fact" is just wrong
by the way ID is a philosophy since you can't ever falsify it, being that the basis comes down to GOD and god can do anything, how do you falsify that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Hughes, posted 08-28-2006 3:03 AM Hughes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Hughes, posted 08-28-2006 4:15 AM ReverendDG has replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4141 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 157 of 169 (344616)
08-29-2006 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Hughes
08-28-2006 4:15 AM


Yeah, and I remember when Punctuated Equilibrium was developed. Evolutionist will rationalize an answer, despite the evidence. Making it a philosophy, not a theory.
evidence that PE doesn't work please, this is nothing more than a claim, i've read there is evidence of PE
Bingo! You just stated what I've been saying. "This has no limits..." That is not theory, but faith, or belief or philosophy.
Fact is that when species are pushed far enough, they die. There are limits to speciation, and that can be observed in the lab.
i asked you what the limit would be, we see not evidence there would be any as far as what can be possible, the only thing is the evirirment and part of the ToE accounts for this.
what do you mean "pushed enough?" they die because they don't fit the niche anymore or don't adapt enough to produce another generation to survive the enviriment.
any evidence there are limits and they have shown this in the lab?
Since ID wasn't being taught in Dover, the court was ruling that simply teaching the difficulties of ToE was promoting religion.
The book, "Icons of Evolution" doesn't talk about ID, but about evolutionists
evidence please, i've read no such thing, the judge found that a theory that bases its foundation on the failure of another theory is not useful or science. thoerys stand on thier own, ID can only work if it answers all the questions not just poking holes in evolution
Since, ID doesn't reference *who* only that design can be detected, your accusation is false. Unless you wish to say that detecting design always means detecting a God?
yes and what do 99% of the IDists think the designer is? God. DI even says that they are out to wedge religion into schools, they don't even hide this.
as for your mis-representation, i said nothing about design automaticly shows god, i said it comes down to god since ID considers complexity of life shows intelligence, any other answer but god being the designer, allows people to ask who designed the designer, its a few steps to just admiting you believe god designed life.
which is why the judge ruled that ID is not science and will not be taught in dover because, ID tries to pretend it is science when its religion just like creationism, not talking about the designer, doesn't help since if it was a true scientific theory it would be about the designer

This message is a reply to:
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4141 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 166 of 169 (347895)
09-10-2006 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by obvious Child
08-29-2006 11:23 PM


Re: American fundamentalism
you ever read the book, "what's wrong with kansas?"
nope, i found a book called 'A kansian guide to evolution' it was about 20 pages, i think thats about all IDiests in kansas can read before thier heads explode

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by obvious Child, posted 08-29-2006 11:23 PM obvious Child has not replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4141 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 167 of 169 (347896)
09-10-2006 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Percy
08-29-2006 9:42 AM


Re: I repeat...
Since everyone in the thread agrees that evolution is falsifiable, we can now move on to consider the hypothetical question of what would be the effect on Biblical creationism if evolution were one day falsified.
no creationism would never be effected, at least not as far as it being taken seriously as science, since you need to prepose so many things that have no evidence and are based on nothing but wishing and deny so much agenst it to make it true

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Percy, posted 08-29-2006 9:42 AM Percy has not replied

  
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