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Author Topic:   Intelligent Design or unthinking blasphemy?
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 112 of 162 (348103)
09-11-2006 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by ringo
09-11-2006 11:18 AM


Re: Laymans terms?
Because the "design" is so poor.
As per the topic, blaming the "design" on God makes Him look like an idiot. Claiming that He created a "perfect" design that somehow made itself imperfect also makes Him look like an incompetent fool.
Perfection or imperfection by who's definition? Idiot by who's definition? The term "Blaming" assumes that one has the knowledge and ability to declare unequivocally that the process is flawed. I know of no human that is privy to such omnipotent enlightenment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 11:18 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 1:56 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 114 of 162 (348138)
09-11-2006 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ringo
09-11-2006 1:56 PM


Re: Laymans terms?
What definitions do we have but our own?
We have the definitions of others to consider. I do not share your assesment of the topics question.
Because the "design" is so poor.
This is simply your assertion. One done without any knowledge of wether or not it is design or if it is design what the intended outcome of the design is. Without knowledge of the intended outcome one cannot assess the preformance of the design.
We as humans have yet to design things that ballance. We design based on preformance we desire, never considering the fallout. Usually ignorant of the true impact what we do will have. In assessing such questions we must recognize our limitations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 1:56 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 4:13 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 118 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 6:49 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 116 of 162 (348181)
09-11-2006 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by ringo
09-11-2006 4:13 PM


Re: Laymans terms?
Who cares whether Henry Ford was trying to invent a car or a time machine? From our point of view, it's a car, and nothing else matters. We assess its design on our criteria, not his.
Yes, You have an opinion but what is your point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 4:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 6:44 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 121 of 162 (348201)
09-11-2006 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by ringo
09-11-2006 6:44 PM


Re: Laymans terms?
My point is that we and we alone decide what is a good design and what is not. We have no way of knowing what the "designer's" intentions were, so the only criteria we have for judgement are our own.
By our (human) standards, the "design" of many living things is crap. That implies that if living things were "designed", the "designer" is either incompetent or malevolent.
So all humans share this view? I do not. This is your personal opinion.
So yes, you have an opinion, what is your point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 6:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 7:29 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 7:50 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 123 of 162 (348208)
09-11-2006 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by ReverendDG
09-11-2006 6:49 PM


Re: Laymans terms?
and your point is what? if we are talking about a designer who stands outside the criteria of what is considered designed, then it would have to be a god and the god in question from most IDests 99% say its the christian god who is all-knowing and outside time and knows everything in time
Who says it has to be a God? That is a matter of faith and another subject.
the evidence alone shows that the design doesn't show intelligence at all but shows some other answer because of the utter faulitiness of the 'design'
Evolution does not work? Pffft!
This is simply your point of view. One I do not share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 6:49 PM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 8:07 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 125 of 162 (348211)
09-11-2006 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ReverendDG
09-11-2006 7:29 PM


Re: Laymans terms?
how is agreeing with ringo or not relevent? the fact that we can look at how things are structured verses how well they work, show people who bother to learn about this, that they are crappy 'designs'
Show me evidence for this assertion that is not opinion.
that the designer is not what people think it is?
That is a good place to start. A long way to go but a relavant starting point. However, to prove to the faithful that an omnipotent source capable of more than we can ever comprehend did not design the whole shebang is a none starter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 7:29 PM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 8:13 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 127 of 162 (348213)
09-11-2006 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by ringo
09-11-2006 7:50 PM


Re: Laymans terms?
The argument from design suggests that "we" - i.e. humans - can detect design. Do all humans share that view? I do not. It is your personal opinion
I have not expressed my opinion.
ID to prove God is faith. What if we remove the assumtion of God from ID and simply ask if there is evidence of design?
My point seems to coincide with what others are expressing. What's your point?
Others share your belief, and?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 7:50 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 09-11-2006 8:08 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 130 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 8:19 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 131 of 162 (348218)
09-11-2006 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by ReverendDG
09-11-2006 8:07 PM


Re: Laymans terms?
and this is relevent how?, were was i talking about evolution? evolution is a better answer than an Intelliegence
You claimed that the design was flawed.
It depends upon the answer you seek.
How is it that evolution contradicts intelligent design?
Where does one eliminate or exclude the other?
As I understand it evolution can say nothing of God. It does not address this question. God is a matter of faith.
Now wether or not something is intelligently designed seems like a reasonable endeavor to me. One that does not require faith in God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 8:07 PM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 8:47 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 133 of 162 (348225)
09-11-2006 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ringo
09-11-2006 8:19 PM


Re: Laymans terms?
It is only blasphemy if you assume the design is flawed. What constitutes a flaw is simply a matter of opinion. One persons flaw is anothers perfection.
Now design, essentially, is when we replace the actual trial and error process with an abstract version of same. Suggesting God did this means He can err.
Explain this more clearly. Suggestion is your implication. What is the indication of err? Assuming God is omnipotent there would be no need for trial and error.
This is not just another venue for pseudo-philosophical blatherings. Please discuss the topic.
In case you hadn't looked at the title it is characterised by your above statement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 8:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 8:53 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 9:41 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 135 of 162 (348230)
09-11-2006 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by ReverendDG
09-11-2006 8:47 PM


Re: Laymans terms?
no, this is not the way science works, if you have to make concessions like this, its not science anyway. the fact that the designs are flawed in such a way that they kill the animal makes the designer horrible at designing and not very intelligent. if you have to make stuff up why its flawed, then i can ask you why not make it without the flaws and not able to gain them? why make them one way over another
Again, death is a flaw to you. It is your opinion. This is your personal feeling and has nothing to do with science.
have you read aobut ID at all? ID excludes evolution from the start, its arguements try to eliminate evolution instead of arguing for why ID is right. why i say ID is wrong? because life doesn't show design at all! why should we accept ID when it doesn't show design?
I do not need others to give me my view. As I said, ID to further ones belief in God is faith. That is clear. But I do not see anything wrong with pursuing the simple question of wether or not the complexity of life systems indicates intellignence.
anyway evolution answers why life has crappy 'design'
Again this is your assertion. Show me evidence that is not opinion.
This is your view. Your belief based on what you think should be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 8:47 PM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 9:29 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 137 of 162 (348238)
09-11-2006 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by ReverendDG
09-11-2006 8:53 PM


Re: Laymans terms?
BS, this is pure BS.
if something is flawed to the point of it killing the lifeform or causing pain for no reason other than it doesn't work, its a flawed design. how is this perfection by any reasoning?
It is your belief there is no reason. That is your opinion.
We learn nothing when stagnant. Pleasure is nothing without pain. You never know how good or valuable something truly is until you lose it. We see things in different ways when experiencing what you interpret as "flaws". We learn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 8:53 PM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 9:45 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 140 of 162 (348245)
09-11-2006 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ReverendDG
09-11-2006 9:29 PM


Re: Laymans terms?
again you are not even reading what i posted at all. I was saying that a designer who includes flaws that kill life, is a useless designer, and as an aswer is flawed, since by useing the mind they should have, should not include the flaws, this is based on human design and reasoning for a designer. as a lifeform that can design things we know we wouldn't make designs that cause faults like this, at least if we are using our brains properly
This is your assertion. A position of belief that death is a flaw. You have no basis for this assertion other than your opinion. In a practicle sense life on this planet would be quite difficult if nothing died. In a philosophical/spiritual sense we would not understand the value of life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 9:29 PM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by ReverendDG, posted 09-11-2006 9:51 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 142 of 162 (348249)
09-11-2006 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
09-11-2006 9:41 PM


Re: Laymans terms?
It's not an assumption. It's a conclusion. Do you know the difference?
Yeah, you have an opinion, so do I
That's just silly. In whose opinion is bad vision or bad joints "perfection"?
We learn when dealing with our "imperfections" All lifes tough lessons teach us things.
Apparently the tough part is pointless to you. It is not to me.
The "unthinking" part?
I was giving you an oppurtunity to do some thinking and perhaps redeem yourself.
As I was, to hold yourself acountable to your own definitions.
I have pointed out to you that you have an opinion. I recognise it. You are entitled to it. I happen not to share the philosophy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 9:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 10:13 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 144 of 162 (348264)
09-11-2006 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by ringo
09-11-2006 10:13 PM


Re: Laymans terms?
We've heard that broken record. If all you can say is "That's just your opinion" over and over and over again, you apparently don't know the difference between an assumption and a conclusion.
Your conclusion is your opinion based on assumption. Back it up.
Back it up with evidence that is not anothers opinion.
The fact that we learn to cope with our imperfections doesn't in any way stop them from being imperfections. If you are suggesting that our imperfections were "designed in" for our edification, then you are the one who is making unwarranted assumptions about the designer's intentions.
I am no less entitled to my opinion than you are yours. I determine for myself in this venue what is warranted. As do you. If you choose not to recognise my right that is your choice. It does not affect me.
I have chosen.
You have to learn to read more carefully. I haven't given any definitions.
This is not just another venue for pseudo-philosophical blatherings. Please discuss the topic.
In case you hadn't looked at the title it is characterised by your above statement.
You defined the topic as not being just another avenue for pseudo-philosophical blatherings. I pointed out that the topic was none other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 10:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by ringo, posted 09-11-2006 11:03 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5881 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 150 of 162 (348299)
09-12-2006 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by jar
09-11-2006 8:08 PM


Re: Laymans terms?
The answer is simple. No!
Who has taken the time to look into the question?
Has there been a study?
Seems rather odd to simply dismiss the idea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 09-11-2006 8:08 PM jar has not replied

  
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