iano writes:
The reasoning for post-fall suffering is as clear as day and is not a problem at all. Gods wrath poured out on sin is what is going on.
Paulk writes:
I don't agree. Even allowing for your view that animals don't suffer - itself highly questionable - there's the whole question of why the Fall happened at all. If God's so perfect it wouldn't happen unless He wanted it to happen.
I think the wrath of God poured out on mankind because of his wickedness is fairly well established myself. We are supposing that evolution is the case so the Fall of nature takes on a different aspect than the view which holds no evolution.
"Even allowing for my view" can work both ways. It is highly questionable that animals suffer if one has first accepted (for that is the grounds on which we must investigate the thread title) that man is a species completely apart (God did something to an existing creature which made him man rather than creature). The question of whether animals suffer is impenetrable for want of being able to look at it from the animals perspective.
I don't see any imperfection in God because of the fall of man. He allowed man a choice and allowed man to reap the consequences of that choice. He warned them there would be consequences too. God is vindicated no matter what the outcome for individuals. If in Hell his justice and wrath vent their fury against sin. If in heaven his justice and love pour out on those who have been washed clean of sin. God can't lose either way. The Fall impinges not on his perfection
Now a person could say that that seems somewhat extreme a reaction but they would wouldn't they - they are fallen. Or to put it in a less smartass fashion - without knowing the extremity of the significance of sin one is not in a position to say the reaction is extreme.
Even the "less smartass" version amounts to "if you don't know I'm right you're in no position to say I'm wrong". But the idea that - say - leaving the cap off the toothpaste is sufficient to justify the punishment of not only the guilty party but many others as well is a pretty obvious overreaction.
Overreaction on what basis? God made it that Adam would pass on that which made him man to his offspring. Like breeds like. We all got our mankindedness from him. That was the order set up. Now if Adam goes and makes a mutant of himself with his rebellion then all his offspring will be mutants. God is holy - he cannot let sin pass. It must be punished. Wrath is an aspect of who God is. Love and Justice are also aspects of God. He cannot not be God. So its not like he could chose not to be wrathful against sin. As it happens the effect of this wrath poured out is to result in man sinning more - which God in his love uses to bring back man to himself. He uses the very fact of his wrath as a means to save us while we still can be. Like if that isn't bending over backwards I do not know what is.
Nor is it that those being punished have no option but to sin. They have - they have a conscience tugging at them not to sin. Yet they chose to. So people today are not being punished for Adams sin but their own sin. We all know we chose to do wrong when we didn't have to. Our sin which attracts Gods (seriously curtailed) wrath. The full blown wrath comes later on. The level of wrath which sin actually attracts. No holds barred wrath (*shivers at the thought*)
Of course that isn't what I'm saying at all. It is generally accepted that "sins" are bad (although it might certainly be questioned if some supposed "sins" really are sinful - or bad). The question is does the sin justify suffering ? It clearly isn't the case that the worst sinners endure the worst suffering or that the righteous are spared (is that not the point of Job ?). So simply claiming that "sin" is a justification for even post-fall suffering is far from clear - even if God did not intend or desire the Fall.
The only person who can decide how bad sin is is God. We cannot. We can debate all we like but patently this is the way it is and it is fairly clear from the Bible that that is the view he takes. Any argument about it being too severe stumbles over that fact.
I know the the good die young and that the wicked prosper but we must remember that this life of ours is but a blip. It is a temporary arena where eternal destination is figured out. If Adam hadn't fallen God would have had a means to deal with that. He did, and God has a means to deal with this.
Accounts will be settled and in full measure later. There is greater and lesser in the kingdom of God. There will be some who come through as if through fire. There is good reason to suppose there will be greater and lesser in Hell too. To each according to what he has done. I wouldn't worry about injustice on this front.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.