The Trinity

You have that particular heresy in common with the Oneness Pentecostals among others. I think it's called Modalism though I may have that wrong.The Trinity is derived from a whole raft of scriptures referring to God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit both in terms of the attributes of God and of Persons. Here's one off the top of my head that clearly refers to the Holy Spirit as a Person: He shall testify of Me. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

In this post you are attributing a statement to me that is not mine, Ringo. I didn't say "power can comfort you can it not?"Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You too, SK, are misattributing a quote to me that is not mine. I never said "Ever hear of personification."This is getting to be an epidemic already.

The word "Bible" isn't in the Bible either. Oddly enough the word "Christian" IS in the Bible but it might not have been. I'm sure "Christianity" isn't in the Bible. Neither is the word "Fallen" or "Original Sin." We use words to describe what we find in the Bible. The Bible doesn't have to use those words.The Trinity is implied in many many parts of the Bible, all through the Old Testament as well as the NT -- which surprised me when it was first presented to me, but it's all there. I wish I could find all my notes on that teaching. I have the tapes though, but he often didn't list every scripture on the tapes as he did in the notes.These are the many places where Jesus is described as having the powers of God, the Holy Spirit is described as having the powers of God and of course God the Father is described with those powers, PLUS the many places where the Father is described as a personality, and the Holy Spirit too; Jesus of course is described as a personality. The Messiah in the Old Testament is often described as being God Himself, though that is oddly often overlooked. The Trinity is the result of putting all these scriptural descriptions together. Digging up the references would be laborious and often doesn't seem worth it in this EvC atmosphere in which such contributions often just get ignored, but perhaps I'll get motivated to do so at some point.The Trinity is important mostly because it acknowledges that Jesus is God against so many belief systems that deny it. Jesus is spoken of as God in many many ways in scripture, but of course it is always possible to rationalize such references away.You have the typical misunderstanding that a person must be finite, rather than omnipresent as the Holy Spirit is, when you ask me to explain how He could indwell hundreds of people at once.But "person" simply means He is an independent personality, not that he occupies some portion of space. In fact He is invisible and omnipresent, pure Spirit. "Person" means that He acts independently of the Father and the Son. This can be demonstrated from many scriptures. The one I gave above about how He will be sent as teh comforter to lead us into all truth, and will testify of Jesus, is a start. I'll try to remember all the others. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Only because you want it to. In fact it describes a person as a person and the church has known that from the beginning. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Something strange happened here. In my post #47 I was replying to Ringo's post #46, I thought, but now jar's #46 is there instead, and mine now appears to be answering my own post #45 though I'm quoting Ringo. Where did Ringo's #46 go?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I meant Fallen in the sense of Original Sin. THAT's not in the Bible. Sorry I was confusing. Jesus in the above passage is simply warning the church of having fallen from their first zeal for Him.For the rest, OK I guess I'll have to dig up the scriptures. It will take a while. I figure if you just READ the Bible you might notice them yourself after all now that I've told you they are there. Well if you've made up your mind that he didn't die, what can I say? Scripture says he died. The church believes he died. Really died. He had to die to pay for our sins, since "the wages of sin is death" and he was paying for our sins. Scripture says he laid down his life -- that means died -- of his own free will. God forsook him and he died. He actually died. He came back because all it took for him to pay for our sins was dying itself in our place. Because he himself was personally sinless he couldn't die for himself but only for us. He died bearing OUR sins. He paid for them by dying in our place. He paid for our sins and then God returned him to life, which he could do because he was sinless. Actually there are three separate statements about Who brought Him back to life, one says He Himself did, one says God the Father did, one says the HOly Spirit did -- all of them being God. Well, sure, the "legion" of demons are all invisible spirits who can penetrate and indwell and even possess human beings. They are also persons or personalities, remember? Jesus spoke to them. They talked to him, they recognized him. Unlike the Holy Spirit, however, they are merely finite personalities. They cannot be everywhere at once as the Holy Spirit can. One of them can only occupy one person or animal at a time, and dozens or hundreds or even thousands can occupy one person, which is what "legion" implies. But the Holy Spirit is One God, One Person, omnipresent, everywhere at once, pure spirit, and a personality too, who can indwell billions at one time. I know a personifcation when I see it and that isn't one.{edit: A personification of God is like where it says in Genesis that He was walking in the garden after Adam and Eve's sin, although that COULD have been an actual theophany or appearance of Christ; or like where God is spoken of as having hands -- as in "He stretched out His hand" or eyes or other body parts although scripture clearly says God is invisible SPirit.}Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

1 Cor 12:11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (both "he" and "will" indicate a person.).Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.Acts 11:12And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. (To bid is something a person does.)Acts 13:2As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. (persons talk, right?)Romans 15:30Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; (comparison between Jesus and the Spirit, exhorting love to both of them, as separate persons);1 Cor 2:10: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. {Persons search, an it, a force, doesn't search. Also, why designate the Spirit if God is meant?)Here's a site that lays it out:

quote:

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it is necessary that we first show that the Bible teaches the personhood of the Holy Spirit. A sufficient condition for being a person is that he-she be a "self-conscious or rational being" (*Random House Dictionary*, 1075). Self-consciousness entails attributes such as knowing, thinking, and communicating. The following passages clearly show that the Holy Spirit is considered a person in Holy Scripture:

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And when he comes [the Holy Spirit], he [the personal pronoun] will show the world how wrong it was about judgment [communication].... But when theh Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since heh will not be speaking as from himself but will say only what he has learned [knowing and thinking]; and he will tell you of the things to come [communicating]." (John 16:8,13)

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One day while they were offering worship to the Lord and keeping a fast, the Holy Spirit said [communicating], "I [first personal pronoun] want Barnabas and Saul set apart for the work which I have calle them." (Acts 13:2)

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In both these passages the Holy Spirit is described as acting in very way a self-conscious person acts: He communicates, thinks, knows, and is described in personal pronouns (i.e., "he" and "I").

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Furthermore, there are several other passages that portray the Holy Spirit as exhibiting attributes that are exclusive of personhood. For example, the Holy Spirit is described as consoling (Acts 9:31), helping us in our weakness (Rom 8:26), forbidding (Acts 16:6,7), and able to be lied to (Acts 5:3). Moreover, the Holy Spirit can be grieved (Eph. 4:30) and insulted (Heb. 10:29), and is said to possess a will (I Cor. 12:11).

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http://answering-islam.org.uk/Trinity/beckwith.html

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Yes, they are identical in all the attributes of God, but the Son had less authority while on earth, subordinated Himself to the Father, who, however, has given Him all authority in heaven and earth.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.