The Trinity

I'd be interested in knowing how many people believe Yeshua, Galilean carpenter's son and longtime synagogue participant, walked around thinking of himself as the Second Person of the Trinity.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

The doctrine of the Trinity is indeed based on Scripture. It represents a later generation's interpretation of canonical texts.In that respect the Trinity doctrine is like the Anselmic doctrine of satisfaction, the doctrine of transubstantiation in Roman Catholicism, the 'universal priesthood' doctrine of Lutheranism, the 'seventh day' doctrine in Seventh-Day Adventism, the 'full gospel' doctrine in Pentecostalism, and many other doctrines. All are subsequent developments based on Scripture. All represent interpretations.Those who want to find a Trinity in a Bible that never mentions one make heavy weather of passages where the Holy Spirit is portrayed in anthropomorphic terms. It is a far journey from an anthropomorphic image to a doctrine of the Trinity, of course. And the doctrine of the Trinity is hardly an inevitable conclusion from these images.The dominant image of the Holy Spirit in the Bible is not as a person but as a natural element: wind. That's what the words translated as 'spirit' from Hebrew (ruach, etc.) and Greek (pneuma) mean. For the original writers and readers of the Scriptures no difference existed. Translators into English have to be more metaphysical about it. They choose the word 'spirit' or 'wind' when rendering these words for 'wind' based on context and interpretation.This means that in the Scriptures the idea of air, breath, and wind is invoked whenever the idea of spirit is invoked. It cannot be otherwise. The image is guaranteed by the language.By comparison anthropomorphic images of the Holy Spirit occur far less often. This raises the question: on what basis are the anthropomorphic images to be taken literally? If we are not to believe that the Holy Spirit is literally a 'wind,' why is it necessary to believe the Holy Spirit is literally a 'person'? There is just as much basis for one as the other.Historically, the doctrine of the Trinity emerged in reaction to various beliefs--subsequently defined as heresies--about the divinity and humanity of Christ. In rejecting these ideas church leaders found themselves asserting a set of premises that meant the universe was governed by a troika of divine beings: Yahweh, Jesus, and the Spirit.Believing in a troika of divine beings is as valid as any other religous belief. The catch for Christians: they had inherited the Hebrew Bible with that Shema to deal with:

'Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one.'

Christians, like Jews, were supposed to be monotheists.Church leaders resolved the problem by refusing to resolve it. They simply asserted the flat contradiction. 'Three divine beings exist that we recognize as God,' they said, 'but only one God exists.'The relationship was a mystery for subsequent generations to ponder.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Beautifully put. A powerful experience, no doubt.I agree that a sense of mystery is a proper thing. A necessary thing, even, in the presence of the sacred. Fundamentalists would do well to develop more of a taste for it.The birth of your child, though, is not analogous to the birth of the Trinity doctrine. And that's a good thing for your kid.
You are talking about a feeling of awe. I'm talking about one generation's political solution. Later generations supplied the awe.Had church fathers in the first four centuries ACE felt the kind of mystery you felt, the Trinity doctrine never would have existed. They would have felt too much humility before the divine. They would not have dared to fill in the blanks of Holy Writ with dogmas about how the unseen realm is organized.Humility was not involved. They had already set forth firm declarations about who and who was not a heretic. They did not hesistate to claim the right to exact punshiments, and to wield that right. First came the definitions of heresy, then the definition of the belief.The time came for church fathers to end the confusion that had led to deviant beliefs in the first place. When they had to state once and for all how things really stood, they found themselves painted into a corner. Christ was truly divine (they had ruled), Christ was truly human (they had ruled), only one God could exist (Scripture), Christ talked about God as someone other than himself (Scripture). They ended by asserting a flat contradiction: three divine beings, one God. They enforced the ruling with excommunication and, eventually, capital punishment.Whatever else may be said of it, the doctrine of the Trinity has historically served mystics well. Mystics by definition savor mystery; their experience of the sacred is not rational but intuitive. The experience thrives on complex pictures that embody opposites: the yinyang, the flaming lotus, the human-divine being, manadalas of every kind. The Trinity became the mandala par excellence for Christian mystics. Meditation on the Trinity was an important part of the experience of people like Francis of Assissi, Teresa of Avila, Hildegard of Bingen, and Thomas Merton.This manifests itself in art. Dante ends the epic journey of The Divine Comendy with a sublime and unforgettable image of the Trinity in eternity. Trinitarian images appear in music from chant to Bach to hymns like 'Eternal Father, Strong to Save,' in visual art such as icons in the Eastern Orthodox tradition, in literature from Dante to modern short stories such as Babette's Feast.The Trinity doctrine is thus like many ideas in human history. Its path is characterized by paradoxical twists, surprises, and ironies. Does the doctrine's intellectually dishonest birth invalidate it? Does its beauty redeem it? Does being 'based on' Scripture make it more sciprtural than other doctrines based on scripture? Does the fact that it 'won' politically make it more valid than other early ideas that lost the same way?These are questions that any good discussion of the Trinity takes into account. If you like sausage and you want to spread the word about how tasty sausage is, you have to be ready to discuss how sausage is made. People do know. People will ask you about it.This is especially the case if your professed belief system owes anything to the Protestant tradition in Christianity. Protestants are famously on record as not buying everything medieval church fathers were selling. Why accept the Trinity doctrine uncritically when you do not accept their other decisions the same way?_

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Beautifully put. A powerful experience, no doubt. I agree wholeheartedly that a sense of mystery is a proper thing--a necessary thing, even--in the presence of the sacred. Fundamentalists would do well to develop more of a taste for it.The birth of your child is not really analogous to the birth of the Trinity doctrine, though. And that's good news for your kid.
You are talking about a feeling of awe. I'm talking about one generation's political solution. Later generations supplied the awe.Had church fathers in the first four centuries ACE felt the kind of mystery you felt, the Trinity doctrine never would have existed. They would have felt too much humility before the divine. They would not have dared to fill in the blanks of Holy Writ with dogmas about how the unseen realm is organized.Humility was not involved. They had already set forth firm declarations about who and who was not a heretic. They did not hesistate to claim the right to exact punshiments, and to wield that right.First came the definitions of heresy, then the definition of the belief. The time inevitably came for church fathers to end the confusion that had led to such deviant beliefs in the first place. When they had to state once and for all how things really stood, they found themselves painted into a corner. Christ was truly divine (they had ruled), Christ was truly human (they had ruled), only one God could exist (Scripture), Christ talked about God as someone other than himself (Scripture). They ended by asserting a flat contradiction: three divine beings, one God.The doctrine left many questions, of course. But questions tend to be few when made punishable by excommunication, torture, and execution.Thus the Trinity doctrine entered history. Whatever else may be said of the results, it served mystics well. Mystics by definition savor mysteries. Their experience of the sacred is not rational but intuitive. The mystic experience thrives on complex pictures that embody opposites: the yinyang, the flaming lotus, the human-divine being, manadalas of every kind. The Trinity became the mandala par excellence for Christian mystics. Meditation on the Trinity was an important part of the experience of people like Francis of Assissi, Teresa of Avila, Hildegard of Bingen, and Thomas Merton.The mystic experience manifested itself in Christian art. Dante ends the epic journey of The Divine Comendy with a sublime and unforgettable image of the Trinity in eternity. Trinitarian images appear in music from chant to Bach to hymns like 'Eternal Father, Strong to Save,' in visual art such as icons in the Eastern Orthodox tradition, in literature from Dante to modern short stories such as Babette's Feast.The Trinity doctrine is thus like many ideas in human history. Its path is characterized by paradoxical twists, surprises, and ironies. Does the doctrine's intellectually dishonest birth invalidate it? Does its beauty redeem it? Does being 'based on' Scripture make it more valid as an interpretation than other doctrines based on scripture? Does the fact that it 'won' politically make it more valid than the other early ideas that lost the same way?These are questions any good discussion of the Trinity takes into account. If you like sausage and want to spread the word about how tasty sausage is, be ready to discuss how sausage is made. People do know. They will ask you about it.This is especially the case if your professed belief system owes anything to the Protestant tradition in Christianity. Protestants are famously on record as not buying everything medieval church fathers were selling. Why accept the Trinity doctrine uncritically when you do not accept their other decisions the same way?I'm most interested now in reading some answers to my first question:

Did Yeshua, son of a carpenter and longtime synagogue worship participant, walk around Judea thinking of himself as the Second Person of the Trinity?

_Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo repair.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Isn't that just the way it goes? The word 'amazing' is always a bad sign.The Ginsu Knife was amazing. The Veg-O-Matic was amazing.The word 'amazing' is to guys in polyester plaid sportcoats what the word 'dude' is to surfers. What 'like' is to teenagers. What 'step up' is to coaches. What 'yeah' is to porn stars.They just can't help themselves. Edited by Archer Opterix, : ongoing quest for literary perfection.Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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ArcherAll species are transitional.