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Author Topic:   The Trinity
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 3 of 128 (313280)
05-18-2006 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Christian7
05-18-2006 4:59 PM


1x1x1=1
Guido writes:
Up until now I've always had a problem with the concept of the trinity. I am still not sure that I fully comprehend it.
Phat writes:
Not too many people DO understand it, Guido. The concept explains God both in unity and in diversity yet it is not contradictory or paradoxical. Historicallly, God is known to be One in essence yet three in personality. On the one hand, the Bible affirms Gods unity (Deuteronomy 6:4)
My personal perspective on the trinity is that there are three persons equal in authority and power made of the same substance and forming one God head: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit.
Phat writes:
Yes. Three personalities of One essence. There are two main heresies that challenge the Orthodox position, however. Modalism
The error that there is only one person in the Godhead who manifests himself in three forms or manners: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
and
Tritheism
Tritheism is the teaching that the Godhead is really three separate beings forming three separate gods. This erring view is often misplaced for the doctrine of the Trinity which states that there is but one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
My questions are this:
1) Does each of these three persons have a seperate free will and consciousness? Do they each have a seperate soul?
Phat writes:
Both the Son and the Spirit proceed (originate from) the Father, according to Orthodox tradition. The Catholics maintained another view, expressed here. In fact, google will shed some light on church positions.
2) If the three each have a seperate consciosness, then is there a fourth wich is the collective consciosuness of the three? Is there a collective person that is the three persons combined?
Phat writes:
I don't think there is a need for a "forth". The Father has full awareness.
3) Does God exist in the trinity simply because that is the way it is or did God chose to be a trinity?
Phat writes:
I think you answered your own question: Thats the way it is, according to Christian belief.
4) Was God always a trinity or did God become a Trinity at one point?
Phat writes:
Well, Jesus coexistwed "In the beginning" with the Father, according to Orthodox Christian belief. I am assuming that the Trinity always was. The comforter was sent to the earth, yet the comforter (Holy Spirit) was not created by God.
I assume that if 3 is choice and 4 is became that means God could make decisions across time.
5) Does each member of the trinity have a specific purpose that was there since eternity past?
Such as
1. The Father creates.
2. The Son redeems.
3. The holy spirit sanctifies.
Phat writes:
Thats the way I read it, also. The Father initiates creation and redemption, the Son redeems the creation, and the Holy Spirit regenerates and sanctifies..applying redemption to us.
I would really like an answer to my questions, ones that are based on scripture.
Phat writes:
These are the sources I found: Matthew 3:16-17, Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14, 1 Peter 1:2 and of course the Deuteronomy one. There are more, of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Christian7, posted 05-18-2006 4:59 PM Christian7 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 7 of 128 (313662)
05-19-2006 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Christian7
05-19-2006 7:21 PM


Jesus had the ability to disobey the Father, but not the inclination. (Being human fully, yet also being God incarnate) As for the Holy Spirit, I would assume that the Spirit has no free will.(Apart from God)
Just because God knows what one of us will decide does not mean that WE do not have free will, however.
Let me give you an example. I have a five year old son. If I were to leave a chocolate chip cookie on the table about a hour before dinner time and my son was to walk by and see it, I know that he would pick up the cookie and eat it. I did not force him to make that decision.
In fact, I don't even have to be in the room at all. I think I know my son well enough, though, to tell you that if I come back into the kitchen the cookie will be gone. His act was made completely free of my influence, but I knew what his actions would be.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by doctrbill, posted 10-14-2006 12:45 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 68 of 128 (356274)
10-13-2006 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Terral
10-12-2006 4:34 PM


Re: The Three Witnesses Of The Almighty AND His Word
Just out of curiousity, Terral...where did you get your teachings?
We can agree that there are many teachings and many views of scripture put forth by many churches, many denominations, and many ideologies.
All can defend their particular views using scriptures to back them up--yet all are in contradiction to each other.
Not to say whether your view is right or wrong at this point..(for who am I to discern or judge?) but I am curious what church background you come from and specifically what denomination?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Terral, posted 10-12-2006 4:34 PM Terral has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Terral, posted 10-13-2006 10:11 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 127 of 128 (419886)
09-05-2007 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by pbee
09-05-2007 7:41 AM


JW Alert
The Jehovahs Witness belief is that Jesus was the first created thing.
The Orthodox Christian belief is that Jesus was in the beginng with the Father.
Whether Jesus is the character of God (incarnate)in Gods mind, the issue is whether Jesus is a created thought from the mind of God or an eternally expressed personality as a part of God.
The Trinity is confusing at times, unless you realize that you are only dealing with One Spirit regardless. Any other competing "spirit" is merely a human symbol and construct of our own minds...expressed through our religious beliefs.
God is relational first....definable second.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by pbee, posted 09-05-2007 7:41 AM pbee has not replied

  
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