The Trinity

Pardon me if this has been explored already. I am just beginning to read this thread and see that no one has linked back to your message #7.Not to put too fine a point on it but your example points up the weakness in the whole argument as to whether God gives us freewill.In your example, you claim to have had no influence over your son's decision. Yet you presented the cookie by way of temptation, asserting that you knew he would succumb.Your protestations notwithstanding: You cannot discount the effect of your influence nor disavow your role in the matter; nor can you disclaim responsibility for the outcome. Your argument would not stand up in court. According to Christian doctrine, life and death may be determined based on decisions such as "to eat or not to eat" the 'cookie.' Imagine the news coverage were life and death actually at stake in your example: FATHER OF "COOKIE BOY" SAYS "HE WANTED IT." (Almost a direct quote from one of those boy-molesting priests.)In like manner and more to the point, God creates us with a mindles sex drive and then (as some would have it) forbids us to act on it in the absence of a legally binding, lifelong civil contract signed by a representative of the state.Yeah. That's God.Seriously: the Bible contains at least two distinct concepts of God. As I understand it, there is only the One reality but a variety of manifestations, including divine Kingship wherein the king is also addressed as 'God.'Believe it or Not

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Not that I think it confirms or denies the doctrine of Trinity, but - Where does one get the idea there can only be one saviour? The following scripture seems to deny that opinion.

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"... in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest [them] from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies." Nehemiah 9:27

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???

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Whatever may be the current beliefs of Judaism; many ancient Hebrews, like everyone else in those days, imagined their king to be God incarnate. Psalm 82:6Furthermore: ancient Hebrews addressed their supreme ruler (king) in terms of his office: Jehovah. Indeed, it was the king of Israel who sat on Jehovah's throne. 1 Chronicles 29:23Christians seem, on the one hand, to have forgotten the truth this political reality and on the other hand ascribe all that myth to their chosen Jewish Icon: Jesus. King Jesus, that is; with all the power, glory and despotic tyranny which that implies.If the Jews no longer believe that a man can be God, perhaps its because they've been there, done that. As the Rabbi said to me at lunch the other day: "That's a very dangerous idea."BTW: I liked your three phase analogy.
I am stealing it for my own devious purposes.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Even if that were a safe assumption (which I doubt it is) the individual saviour of one's time and place or one's individual self would doubtless seem to be the saviour to end all saviours. Aside from the translator's discretion in capitalizing the word when it is used in reference to Jesus, there is nothing else in scripture to substantiate your assumption. There is, in fact, evidence against it.Jesus is called "a Saviour." [i.e. one of such]

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"Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31

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And again:

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"Of this man's seed hath God according to [his] promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:" Acts 13:23

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What an excellent opportunity the author missed if he wanted to claim that Jesus was a saviour of saviours. But of course that expression does not occur anywhere in scripture, nor would one expect it. Saviours Save. They don't need saving.Besides, the saviour of the day is the only one who really counts.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

The keyword is "seem." On the one hand Christians seem unaware that the divine attributes they assign to Jesus were also assigned, by ancient Hebrews, to their beloved saviours; most notably: Moses, David, and Cyrus.They seem unaware of the fact that Moses was elevated to godhood by Jehovah (Exodus 7:1). Or, perhaps, they are unaware of the implications of the fact.David and Cyrus, among other kings, were called Christ even though that fact may not be apparent in modern versions of the scripture. For some reason translators have obscured the fact and the Christian establishment has not been keen on pointing it out.Why is that?

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

The trinity doctrine contains a number of mysterious concepts. One of these is that of incarnation, which I imagine to be the equivalent of being "filled with the spirit," "possessed" as it were by "the holy ghost." This, as I understand it, is how we are to "become sons of God." This is also the mechanism, if that is an appropriate term in this case, whereby Christ lives in and through us. i.e via the "indwelling spirit." Is this making any sense to you?On the basis of that idea that a man can be possessed by the spirit of God, and that God can live in and through a man, the ancient Hebrews were able to assume that their king was possessed by God, that God lived in and through the medium of his body, that God spoke to him and through him; that he was the vicar of God, the presence, the voice, the opinion, and for all practical purposes: the person of: God on Earth. His word was law. His interpretation of the Law was Law. His power was absolute. He sat on the throne of the LORD; he was addressed as "LORD," and "God."In this sense Jesus has nothing on his father David. Incorrect Answer.

• A "king of kings" is a king who rules other kings. In Jesus' day there were only two such named in holy scripture: Artazerxes of Persia - Ezra 7:12; and Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon - Ezekiel 26:7.
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• A "song of songs" is collection of songs. You may note that there are several "songs" included there.
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• A "lord of lords" is a lord who rules other lords. When authors wish to indicate comparative value they include adjectives. For example: Great Lord; Mighty Lord; etc. The expression "LORD most high," which appears twice in the Psalms, is the only superlative lordly attribution of which I am aware.

The holy scripture calls such men saviours and does not distinguish between different 'kinds' of saviour. Apparently the meaning of the word is simple and clear. It is interesting to note that the book called Joshua does not contain the word "salvation" except in the name of its title. Apparently the author would have us see that entire action adventure in terms which define the very meaning of the word. It is also interesting to note that Joshua and Jesus are the same name and that translators of the King James Version got the two confused in a couple of places. Whatever distinguishing features are assigned to the 'type' of salvation associated with Jesus of Nazareth, are probably laid on the story post-hoc. There is every indication that prior to being frustrated in his mission, Jesus fully intended to be the saviour whom everyone believed he could be.The prophecy that Jesus would save his people from their enemies (Luke 1:71) may or may not have worried the Roman's (if they even knew of it). But the hell fire speeches by which he punished the ears of those who detracted from his mission, certainly played a role in short circuiting his ability to fulfill the aforementioned prophecy. He, apparently purposefully, incited political fear and personal loathing among the God-appointed leaders of Roman occupied Israel. But he did not save Israel; much less the world. He failed miserably. Forty years later his gang put a new spin on the story; after which it sold better than ever. A hundred years later a Roman emperor promoted the cult to State Religion. The rest, as they say, is history. Before that, very little is known of what the heck was going on in the Christian cult. One thing we do know which happened during that period:ISRAEL WAS DESTROYED / NOT SAVEDTHEIR WORLD WAS DESTROYED / NOT SAVEDWhere in the world do conditions exist which bear the marks of a sinless paradise? Or is that not what we look for in a world which has been saved?One might hope that three gods, working together, could deliver on a few of the grandiose promises advertized in the Bible. If not, then what the heck good are they?

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Of course not.I must admit a bit of surprise that you would not only only fail to understand the three examples given (of what is already present in holy scripture) but would go beyond that to add in a new expression which makes no sense.Jewish saviours and would-be saviours, mentioned in the Bible, are so numerous that many remain un-named. We have looked at the definitive scripture from which this realization has been derived. Even so, you have chosen to ignore the clear word. You have chosen to invent something new; NOT because there is any scriptural or linguistic justification for it but rather because it avoids an uncomfortable truth: Jesus was not as unique as is claimed by the pagan religion named after his would-be title. You cite Moses as an example of a saviour whose work seemed unsuccessful early on. But Moses did succeed (working, within the myth, of course), and in his lifetime, no less. Followers of Moses had faith in results. Followers of Jesus had to invent results; invisible results; feel good results; results which can be achieved in a non Christian context; Ahh. The myth of a fallen human nature. The idea that all our troubles stem from the act of a Jew man eating non kosher food. The idea that there is a problem with how we are made. Yet, this God supposedly made us and declared us "Good." Any fundamental changes would require that we be re-invented, modified, evolved, esentially: re-created. Now who could do that? Who could re-create humankind? Do you know the biological challenges inherent in that prescription? I think not. Else you would realize that we are as God made us; nothing more, nothing less.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

And we have seen them drinking cyanide, bombing mosques, and burning their own dissidents at the stake.JW, you really must take a good hard look at the dark side of Christianity. And if you cannot see it, then you are probably already deep within.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -