Old Earth Flood Geology

I heard an interesting new approach to flood geology. In discussing Creationism with a friend (who is an OEC), he stated that he thinks that most (nearly all) geologic features were caused by the deep time, scientific explanations - but that * then* there was a global flood as described in Genesis. This happened sometime after there were humans, but thousands of years before the traditional date of around 2,500 BCE. (Yes, I know this violates the literal reading of the ages and lineages which establish dates, but oh well - I haven’t gotten a clear answer for that yet). Thus, all the questions of “how could a flood have made angular unconformities, or crosscut ripple marks, or fossil sorting (etc.)?” don’t apply, since those all formed by regular geologic means. The only question remaining is what evidence of a worldwide, mountaintopping flood should there be? Of course, something as massive as that would leave a huge amount of evidence, so just of the top of my head, these came up:*Lack of flood deposition layer. Just like varves, a massive layer with larger rocks below finer silt should cover the world - no such layer exists (in addition, it would have to be uniform in age).*Uniform layer globally - uniform composition, uniform fossils, etc. K-T boundary is analagous*Pollen records showing massive plant extinctions of most land plants (not salt tolerant)*Massive extinction of either saltwater or freshwater fish (pick one), and echinoderms - starfish, etc. List of creatures that wouldn’t be on ark and would be extinct:
Ice worms* where did all the water come from, and where did it go? (what evidence shows mountains are old?)*Massive extinction of insects (yes I’ve heard of the vegetation mats)*Massive bottleneck in all species, including humans (visible to geneticists)*Very idea that there are “flood stories in all cultures” doesn’t quite fit - since everyone was supposed to drown.Plus, it was useful & fun to page though this thread: http://EvC Forum: REAL Flood Geology -->EvC Forum: REAL Flood GeologySo, what do you think? Sure the idea that there was a global, recent flood over an old earth doesn’t fit the real world, but it at least ignores *less* evidence than the YEC flood geology position ignores. I guess that’s like being a little taller than Danny DeVito - it doesn’t make you tall. Are there other really obvious missing evidences that I don’t have on the list above?So in summary, two questions come up:
1. What other evidences are there that a recent, global flood would have left?
2. What data points to or refutes possible oldest and youngest dates for this event? (yes, they do seem to quickly overlap, but let’s try anyway).Perhaps it’s useful to specify which (#1 or #2) each post is about?P.S. Please do not give examples against the YEC flood geology - we already have a thread on that. Also, though my friend asserts that the Noah story happened, please don’t point out problems just with the Noah story - there are too many to count, and other lists already do that (like this site - Problems with a Global Flood, 2nd edition). Lastly, have fun. I’ve already got a good start on the evidence list, and am starting this thread mainly for our enjoyment.Seems like it’s a no-brainer that this goes into the Flood forum.

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-Equinox_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

I’ll start us off with a time frame post.The earliest date must be before 10,000 years ago, since we have tree ring and varve data going back that far, which would otherwise have shown the flood. The latest date must be later than 6,000 (?) years ago, since the story mentions Noah getting drunk on wine from his vineyard, and our oldest evidence of wine is 6,000 years old. Dates for agriculture (vinyard) or speech capability may also help, since the flood must have happened after people could talk, otherwise the flood story could not be preserved as an oral tradition.Tentative working time frame as a result:Latest date: flood had to be before 8,000 BCE (Dendro & Varve)Earliest date: flood had to be after 4,000 BCE (oldest evidence of wine)OK, so as of now we have a problem, where our earliest possible date is later than our latest possible date. Solutions or other date setting facts?

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-Equinox_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

OK, please let’s stay on topic. This is not a thread to debate young earth flood geology. There are multiple other threads for that. Young earth flood geology is well known by geologists to be as fraudulent as flat-earth geology (just check the statements by the geological associations). Please, before posting here, please refer to the opening post for a reorientation. Specifically, stating that the whole fossil record is due to the flood, or that zircons prove the earth is 6K years old are off topic. You can have all those discussions - just have them somewhere else.The only link much of the discussion so far has to the thread topic is “where did the water come from and where did it go”, and even that is a little thin - since even with that we have to have normal earth conditions for much of the earth’s history. Please focus on the geology, especially on what an old earth, with a recent (under 1 million years ago) global flood would look like. There is a lot more to look at there than just the water question (plus, much of the geologic feature Charley cites are best explained by an old earth). Charley - as a YEC, you are welcome to think outside your view and talk about OE flood geology here if you like - if not, please stop hijacking the thread (and keep YEC flood geology to YEC flood geology threads). Thank you.Iceage wrote:

quote:

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Be careful, as the come back is that these stories are carried down after the tower of Babel, which explains the differences. You didn't say if your friend believes in Babel or not.

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Yes, I intend to check on why the “flood stories in all cultures” is being cited as evidence. I’ve heard YECs and others cite that as evidence that the flood was GLOBAL - effecting everyone, and thus the issue. However, let’s not focus on that now. As for Babel, my friend takes a very similar view of Babel - and a more defendable one than YEC. He accepts that languages evolved as we know (with one branch having a latin like ancestor that divided and speciated into Italian, French, German, etc, ) and that we can see the process continuing with microevolution leading to dialects like NY English vs deep south English. He asserts the literal historicity of the Babel story by saying that Babel happened very early, and was the initial confusing of the languages, with the known evolution happening after that. Sly, as you say (or at least more plausible and more consistent with the evidence). That, however, is worthy of whole other thread. For this thread, let’s look at the old earth flood geology.

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-Equinox_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

OK, here’s another one: widespread characteristic erosion. The world meteorological organization defines “heavy rain” as rain in excess of 2” in a 24 hour period (SWIC - Heavy Rain / Snow). With this in mind, think about the great flood idea. We have 40 days (= 960 hours) to get to mountaintop depth, and with an old earth, Everest and such are in existence first. Everest is 6 miles high, so we’ll need 6 miles of depth. 6 miles = (5000 ft/mile), so that’s over 30,000 feet in about 1000 hours, or 30 FEET of rain PER HOUR for weeks on end. That’s heavy times 8,600!!! - wow, over two orders of magnitude more than just a “heavy rain” (Heavy rain is 2" per DAY, this is 360" per hour, or 8640" per day). Wait, I forgot about the “fountains of the deep”. OK, even though they are complete fantasy with no evidence to support them, even if they (somehow) supplied over half of the water, we are still talking about many FEET of rain an hour - several dozen times as heavy as just “heavy rain”.This kind of deluge, over the entire earth, would certainly lead to obvious erosion and channels on higher elevations, like any elevation over, say 500 feet, since those areas would be above the water for a while, allowing erosion to occur. Plus, this would be found equally on young vs. old landforms, *areas of desert*, dry areas, etc. This would be so obvious that early geologists would have noticed it right away. Are there any geologists (or even just people who live on earth) who can verify that there isn’t a geologic sign of this hyper rain?Thanks- Edited by Equinox, : realized that 15 feet in 1 hour is 360 feet in one day (24 hours).

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-Equinox_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)