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| Author | Topic: Why Are Christians Afraid To Doubt? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Phat Member  Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
a free pizza is not a miracle. Now, if the pizza was free and it fed 5000 neighbors, we may have something!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
purpledawn writes: I agree and, for me, the spiritual growth is knowing God through His manifestation in myself and others.
I don't feel the journey has an "end". It is continual spiritual growth. nator writes: Nator, our differences in our approach to growth and destiny are the classic issues between freethinkers and believers. Freethinkers cherish the ability to critically think and examine. The ability to question answers is itself a sacred gift from God. Jar and I discuss this. Jar maintains that God is unknowable. I believe that God is knowable. I agree with purpledawn in that it is a lifelong process, however.
Neither the AA or the Christian Step 3 would work for me. My life and my will are just that. My life. My will.nator writes: And I would agree insofar as it is I who consciously chooses to commit my life...
One of the most useful things I learned during my recovery is that I am the only one who controls me.Rob writes: And no formula works for everyone. As a believer, I used to avow that Jesus was/is the only answer and personally, I still believe that this is so. I no longer preach it, however. God is showing me that each individual whom I interact with has a unique and special makeup to them. I don't push anything on anyone anymore unless I feel that it is what I should do. (and you may ask how I can trust my feelings.) I just do. I don't justify myself to anyone else but me.(and God)
We're all raised in relatively abusive homes. And that is because sin is really sin, and it hurts and damages us deeply.nator writes: As this pertains to me and my recovery and counseling choices, I will say that I have never given up on myself. I simply allowed myself to be accountable and able to accept direction from sources besides myself.
I just have no clue why someone who is struggling with life would think it is a good idea to just give up on themselves. Rob writes: But thats what irritates me about your approach. You attempt to decide for us how we all should approach the puzzle. You should do what you believe. As far as we goes, thats up to each of us individually. I realize that I am touting relativism, but relativism is the way that people operate. Many people do not desire for morality, truth, or authority to be legislated or even suggested. And I have come to respect that. After all, God never makes me do anything...why should I make you do anything?
So when I said I live for another world (I actually thought you might jump on that) I didn't say it well. What I was driving at was that, since this world is in disarray, we should look to adapt to it. Rob,to Nator writes: In the context of this forum, I strongly believe that my only responsibility is the freedom to express my view.
We have a responsibility to each other, and the fact you respond to me proves that you do care what others think. Rob writes: If we are collectively meant to work as a team, the insight will be verified in our actions and will be validated by the results. We are not meant to attempt to lead the team (or group of individuals) to a collective goal. That is Gods job. Remember that He who began a good work...shall be faithful to complete it. I never worry about being a Shepherd anymore. Just keep in mind Phat, that this is not a small group. And also remember that Jesus embodied all of the qualities of understanding. He had both your greatest insight and patience, as well as the fire and certitude of my boldest sermon. He had the balance that none of us can achieve. That is the whole reason we need the rest of the body. We are meant to work as a team.CTD writes: You never had him to begin with! ah, what's the use! I've surely lost you by now.  nator writes: I agree in that We become the decisions that we make. I never do anything simply because I am told to do so, when it involves matters of spirituality and belief. The unction must become real to me before I act on it. I "create" myself every day. Years ago, I re-created myself quite radically when I decided that I didn't want to behave like my old self behaved. Of course, the "project" that is me is never finished, and I will continue to change and grow (I hope!) until my last moment.Ringo writes: And the only reason to accept anything blindly is because one of your other "senses" cleared the runway for takeoff! Faith without doubt is blind acceptance.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
anastasia writes: Have faith...take a stand. But don't just stand! Look around. Is this faith really doing anything for you? Is it really making your life more livable or more meaningful? We can't just sit back on our idealistic haunches and feel justified for finding the 'solution'. What good is a solution if it hasn't solved anything?..If God is your solution, by all means have confidence like a child. Then, seriously, get up and be an adult..CTD writes:
Does your heart say one thing, but reason another. An older, wiser friend once told me to follow the heart in such situations. The heart is smarter, and reason will catch up later. This has proven to be true in my experience.(He's one of the most intellectual persons I've ever known - go figure!)sidelined writes: I do not believe that life is meaningless.
I have fathered 3 children and been father to five more and I have known of disappointment and sacrifice. I have also known love and bonding and sheer delight at the marvelous world we find ourselves a part of. I have buried friends and witnessed births. I have seen the moon rise full 20 miles into the wilderness over the Bow river in the dead of winter with Orion soaring to the west. I have watched my mother talk to me with the light of recognition long since gone and more than once wished I had been there to wish her farewell. Life is a huge thrill ride, a dance, a play ,a theater to which we are both actor and audience yet this is somehow a meaningless adventure?Rob writes: Do you honestly think that we humans will see unbelievable deception IF we refuse to have a love of Christ and/or the truth? For the record, many fundamentalists believe that this is, indeed true. I am just about bleeding in my mind and soul for you folks, but there's nobody home. It reminds me of what is said in those stupid scriptures about the signs and wonders and almost incomprehensible deception that will come in the last days.Rob writes: But why would God give you the insight and not the rest of us? And although none of you believe in such foolishness (not even the elect) I will share it with you at the expense of my usefulness in this travesty and ship of fools...
arachnophilia writes: Personally, I can no more deny Gods reality than I could my Mothers reality. is god real? this is the question, after all. everything else is really beating around the bush. it's the fundamental doubt. it's a question i consider, sure, but not one i ever seriously entertain.arachnophilia writes: I am highly skeptical, but I am not so skeptical that I dismiss the experience. Otherwise, I may as well declare personal experience and eyewitness testimony as invalid. People can be too skeptical, I think. They end up forever questioning and never arriving at a truth. i have come to be high skeptical of any claimed religious experience (including my own), and have all but discarded the notion. I will go so far as to say that I give respect to people who take a stand on agnosticism, as long as they are totally honest with themselves. I only ask that they respect my decision to make a stand even in the midst of inconclusive facts beyond a reasonable doubt.
CTD writes:
There is some basis for every belief. It may not be valid, as in the case of an hallucination; but there is always some basis. The closest thing I know of to truly blind faith is the statement "There is no god."CTD writes: Good point, CTD! Unless someone has walked a mile in my shoes and experienced what I have experienced, they have no business telling me my God does not exist. At worst, I have the right to be left alone with my belief.
Would it be best for Christians to grab hold of any doubt they can - even one based on a misrepresentation of scripture - just so they can abandon their faith and join the ranks of the scoffers? Are you that desperate for fellowship? Ringo writes: We should be unafraid to discuss and examine our faith.
Should we accept what we have been spoon-fed? Or should we try to understand?Ringo writes: The elusive fourth Beatle strikes again! It's not about "abandoning faith" at all - it's about strengthening your faith. You must have a very weak faith indeed if you're afraid to test it.
nator writes: If so, I believe that God meant for it to be this way. I am only speculating, but I believe that God allowed the world to have competing ideologies to test the innermost hearts of humanity to resolve the problems. The verdict is still out on how we did.
I contend that region and parentage "chooses" most people's religion for them.I CANT writes: There are some things I do not doubt can these be included? Phat, would you please clarify for me. Sure. Is it proper for a believer to question whether or not God is real? Is it proper to question why our religion believes certain things? Is it proper to abandon our fundamentals and become true critical thinkers with no answers and lots of questions? Does the God of our hearts understand and allow such questioning to occur? Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them. * * * * * * * * * * “The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.” --General Omar Bradley
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Rob writes: You are being trained to be a better apologist, Rob. You are in a battle and are prohibited from using scripture, your primary weapon of choice. Will you be able to allow God to use you to communicate through your own words and personality? You say that our only tool is that which is understandable If so, why do you even need to attempt to convert or convince anybody? Is not God capable of drawing all men unto Himself? Why does He need you or I to do so?
Perhaps the Bible is not the Word of God. But unless God has revealed Himself, then we have no basis for labeling anything as 'true or false' in the ultimate metaphysical sense, other than by our own prejudice (the very thing we seek to escape). Our only tool for understanding is that which is understandable.CTD writes: If God wants to be undetectable, or render us collectively or individually incapable of detecting Him, I suggest He could manage to do so. If God wants to get in one's face, or summon one to His location, what's to stop Him from doing so?Nator writes: And I do not doubt my belief. It may be subjective for me, though I perceive it as objective for everyone. It is a positive truth claim. But "subjective" truth is only true for an individual. "Objective" truth is true for everybody, no matter one's personal beliefs.IMB - God is very much objective. God is God regardless whether anyone believes in Him or not. Exclusive objectivity is unprovable, very annoying,(to some) yet quite clearly a belief option.It is no more annoying than having an atheist say to us that God does not exist, however. Stile writes: Unless there is no conclusion, according to a critical thinker.
I think doubt is one of those large parts of life where an extremist view in either direction is rather... incapacitating.Stile writes: It may be important for some to take a definite stand, while for others it is equally important to conclude nothing. Each should be convinced in their own mind and heart.
Is it ever appropriate to take a stand? Of course. Again, depends on how important the subject matter is. Nator writes: That is honest! I have no idea if I'm right about the existence of God. I'm not even sure if the answer is knowable by anybody.
Rob writes: The only thing that annoys me about you is that your topics are too long and tend to dominate threads which you did'nt start. You have every right to participate but would be advised to talk less and listen more. (and no long scripture...we are in Rome..do as the Romans do!)
Why is it that you have such a problem with me believing the way I do, and presenting it to others in as intellectually coherent a manner as possible?Rob writes: So quit trying to prove people incorrect! Thats the Holy Spirits job...not yours! By explaining why I am a Christian, and why it makes sense, I am giving the implicit answer to why the opponent in question is incorrect in his or her analysis.
Jar writes: So I am assuming that you don't believe that people ever get saved or meet God or that God imparts anything into them?
there are areas where doubt should be the norm. That would include areas such as the existence of GOD as well as other areas where it is impossible to know, test or verify the answer. In those areas the individual should always continue to doubt, to question.Rob writes: But thats my point! We are not meant to be on top of our students even if we fancy ourselves to be teachers! Let the students have equal say! To reiterate: We are not God! Of this I have no doubt.
If you look back at a good teachers history, you will see a marked change in strategy for staying on top of the students, who's constant and tribal urge, is to cut the authority out from under him, so as to intimidate and tempt him to accept a bribe in exchange for a passing grade.Ringo writes:
It's the teacher's responsibility to inspire the student to thirst for knowledge - not just drone on the same rote "lessons" day after day.anastasia writes:
No one has to rob us of the good stuff. Only the crutches. The questions should always be 'do we really know what we claim to believe?' and 'do we still believe it upon knowing?'.I CANT writes: Man! I am glad for you! I wish that I had no doubts! I believe that God foreknew that I had a brain and a mind and would think. As a Christian, my advice to you would be to be honest with yourself and if you ever do have any doubts take them to God in prayer.
I think everyone who has not been born again that believes somethingcame from nothing should have GREAT DOUBT. If I ever had any doubts the past 20 days removed all doubt's that I might have ever had. Ringo writes: The crutch of faith? I prefer the analogy of the anchor of faith. I dont like getting swept around by changing doctrines. Doubt is the filter that removes false "certainty". It builds confidence in tested results. It gives us results we can truly trust. It frees us from the crutch of faith.. Edited by Phat, : spelling
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I just get angry when someone tells me that my faith is made up or that logic always trumps belief. That is my faith. It may not always appear logical. Besides...why am I so disappointing? I may be reacting off the cuff, but I am being honest, if a wee bit immature.
Edited by Phat, : spelling
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You get mad at fundies for asserting positive truth claims yet are militant that yours should stand. I never came to your table here...you came to my topic. All I ask is that you acknowledge that I can believe anything I so choose without you having to frame the issue as to whether or not it is logical. I don't recognize the authority of your logic, and if you refuse to see the God that exists regardless of your logic, I refuse to see the authority behind your logic. Call me crazy!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: Maybe I am crazy. I have experienced many many instances that I judged to be mystical. I suppose that some folks think that James Randi can fly in the window and disprove every supernatural truth claim ever reported. I don't know. Honestly. It is frustrating to me that I can't prove my beliefs to you. Perhaps it was meant to be that way, though. lashing out at logic (and crashfrog) only emphasizes the weakness of your faith. Is logic such a threat to your beliefs? I asked you a while ago, are you anchored to your faith or to your doctrines? Is your foundation really faith at all or is it fear of reality? I'll be the judge of whether or not I am crazy...and so far, the verdict is 50/50
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
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