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Author Topic:   JJ's Definition of Kind
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 1 of 12 (396333)
04-19-2007 4:33 PM


In hopes of not taking an already long thread down an even longer side path I'm moving this quote from JJ over here.

No experiments have been shown to change one created kind into another created kind.

I'd like to hear how JJ defines "created kind", and would like some modern examples.

Is a seal a kind of dog, a kind of fish, a kind of dolphin, or just a kind of seal?
Is a penguin a kind of bird?
Is a platypus a kind of kangaroo or a kind of beaver or a kind of duck?
Is a crab a kind of spider?
Is a spider a kind of ant?

I think it would be helpful to have a concrete definition of "Kind" so we can start sorting out the various "created kinds" to better understand what could or could not have evolved.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Nighttrain, posted 04-19-2007 11:22 PM Nuggin has not yet responded
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AdminNosy
Administrator
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 12 (396340)
04-19-2007 4:54 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2167 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 3 of 12 (396429)
04-19-2007 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
04-19-2007 4:33 PM


Kind? What kind?
Rots of Ruck, Nug. I think you will have more chance of winning the lottery than seeing creos pin themselves into a corner. And if someone attempts a vague definition, watch the kafuddle when we ask where are the transitionals?
This message is a reply to:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 4083 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 4 of 12 (396463)
04-20-2007 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
04-19-2007 4:33 PM


Bariminology!
Baraminology - classification of created organisms

Holobaramin: "The holobaramin is all and only those known living and/or extinct forms of life understood to share genetic relationship. It is an entire group believed to be related by common ancestry...In more specific creationist terminology the holobaramin consists of all known organisms in a group beginning after God created the original organisms"

Is a seal a kind of dog, a kind of fish, a kind of dolphin, or just a kind of seal?

I's assume a kind of seal. I don't think creationists would go so far to say that they had a common ancestor to their fellow members of the suborder Caniformia, like dogs, because that would involve too much macroevolution! I think they would draw the line at the family level for most of the Carnivora, as they often do for their favourite example: Canidae.

Is a penguin a kind of bird?

Generally, birds are considered an apobaraminic group. Comprised of more than one baramin, but "no member organism of a holobaramin within an apobaramin shares ancestry with any organism outside of its own holobaramin"
Is a platypus a kind of kangaroo or a kind of beaver or a kind of duck?

Platypi are prototheria, which is not even the same class for ducks (Synapsida for mammals, Sauropsida for birds), and subclass (Theria for kangaroos and beavers). No creationist would fathom that much macroevolution!

Is a crab a kind of spider?
Is a spider a kind of ant?

Considering that these aren't even the same subphylum (spiders are Chelicerata, crabs Crustacea and ants Hexapoda), and that creationists will barely stretch their baramin concept to order, I doubt any creationist would consider them related. Arthropoda is an apobaramin for sure!


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Doddy
Member (Idle past 4083 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 5 of 12 (396464)
04-20-2007 7:00 AM


Best Baramin!
The only baramin where creationists will draw the line at the species (or maybe, the genus) level is our own - Homo sapiens.

The only problem is, they can't quite work out which ones are apes and which aren't. That's kind of saying something about the transitional nature of these hominids fossils, isn't it?


Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

Contributors needed in the following fields: Physical Anthropology, Invertebrate Biology (esp. Lepidopterology), Biochemistry, Population Genetics, Scientific Illustration, Scientific History, Philosophy of Science, Logic and others. Researchers also wanted to source creationist literature references. Register here!


    
PaulK
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Message 6 of 12 (396466)
04-20-2007 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Doddy
04-20-2007 6:56 AM


Re: Bariminology!
quote:

Holobaramin: "The holobaramin is all and only those known living and/or extinct forms of life understood to share genetic relationship. It is an entire group believed to be related by common ancestry...

i.e. Any evolution that actually occurs is evolution within a kind. Even what JJ refers to as "molecules-to-man" evolution would be within a kind.

Obviously this isn't the definiton JJ was thinking of.


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jar
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Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 7 of 12 (396476)
04-20-2007 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
04-19-2007 4:33 PM


A "kind" of Shell Game
Baraminology has been suggested as a way to determine "KIND" but it seems simply to be another of the Christian Cult of Ignorance's ways to misdirect attention while they palm the pea and con the gullible. It makes the claim that it will be an open and scientific attempt at classification, but the dishonesty is hidden way down in the Guidelines.

In the Guidelines they admit that they will not accept any evidence or conclusions that go against or refute their already determined conclusions.

#1

Scripture claims (used in baraminology but not in discontinuity systematics). This has priority over all other considerations. For example humans are a separate holobaramin because they separately were created (Genesis 1 and 2). However, even as explained by Wise in his 1990 oral presentation, there is not much relevant taxonomic information in the Bible. Also, ReMine’s discontinuity systematics, because it is a neutral scientific enterprise, does not include the Bible as a source of taxonomic information.

from Christian Answers.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nuggin, posted 04-19-2007 4:33 PM Nuggin has not yet responded

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 8 of 12 (396801)
04-22-2007 4:12 AM


Yet another Bump
If you guys see JJ in the chat room or something, remind him that he has yet to response to this thread.
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 12 (397014)
04-23-2007 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Nuggin
04-22-2007 4:12 AM


Re: Yet another Bump
I'm sorry, I have to ask. Who's JJ, as in what does JJ stand for? The only thing that comes to mind is JoeJoe...


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 686 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 10 of 12 (397016)
04-23-2007 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Taz
04-23-2007 9:40 PM


Re: Yet another Bump
check out "problems with genesis creation account" thread. you should find JJ there--it's short for a much longer name that starts with "JJ" (i believe--can't see it right now)
This message is a reply to:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 11 of 12 (398767)
05-02-2007 1:44 PM


jjsemsch, we're still waiting
JJ, we're still waiting for you.

Bumping again to get this back on the front page of "all topics"


    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 12 of 12 (398783)
05-02-2007 3:12 PM


Their problem is that the concept of "kind" is meant to solve the Noah's Ark problem --- so for this they need as broad as possible a set of morphological or genetic criteria.

On the other hand, they need to deny that chimps and humans are the same kind, for which they'd need extremely narrow and stringent morphological and genetic criteria.


  
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