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Author Topic:   Why It Is Right To Do Good To Others
pelican
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 211 of 304 (411065)
07-18-2007 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Stile
07-18-2007 3:05 PM


How non-judgement can work
I don't believe good and bad are human traits at all. Stile, have you ever been 'bad'? Have you ever made bad choices? Have you ever been unjustly punished? I have and I was innocently pursuing what I believed were my rights to happiness, or just being myself, or doing the best I could under the circumstances.
I was not intentionally trying to cause harm or intentionally being good or bad. I was being human. These experiences have had a profound effect on my life and how I perceive the world. None of it is good, so I speak from personal experience that the judgement of good or bad is harmful. It does nothing to bring peace and harmony. The judgement of good v. bad is about power not human rights.
Once this judgement is removed from the human experience, good and bad will just disappear, but not in a puff of smoke.
The human race will begin to regard each other from a different perspective. Every human being will be treated with compassion and understanding, including Bin Laden and George Bush. Empathy and humility will be placed in the human experience from an early age. This is an ideal that would create equality. It may take a while but it is possible.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Stile, posted 07-18-2007 3:05 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by ikabod, posted 07-20-2007 7:59 AM pelican has responded

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 2666 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 212 of 304 (411154)
07-19-2007 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Stile
07-18-2007 3:20 PM


Re: Intentions vs. Results?
excellent .. however ..

i disagree with the use of you system , BECAUSE it is so stripped down , it has lost what i consider some vital parts , and with out these it is no longer valid , it is too crude an approximantion.It take issue with your final comment about identifing non-critical aspects to me these are critical .

Yes i do agree that that for us poor dumb humans we need simplicity BUT in this case i feel yours goes to far ... in fact i even consider the system i posted to be very very mininimal and lacking detail and should be considered a starting block on which to build a system...

as i have said before it is they way in which we all try to look at acts as isolated single events that leads us into problems , the realitty of the interconectedness of human life is to complex for easy anaylsis .

really i should liked to have put ...

Good motive + good action + good benifit + good effect for all linked factors and events = morally good

but i thinke we can agree that takes us beyond our humble skills and reasoning and comprehending ...

i am surprised we got this far in 200 post , 2000 post would not have surprised me ..

the reality is that i am unsure that there ever is a truley morally good act .. just our best attempts at such a act , with all the baggage we bring to such an act ..

it is clear from human history that what the some agree to being morally good changes over time , and we are all aware of current items that stire up moral bedate to fever pitch .....

as i said i think the most important thing to focus on is our doubt ..only that can keep us on the right side of the good/bad equation ... i hope ..


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Stile, posted 07-18-2007 3:20 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Stile, posted 07-19-2007 3:48 PM ikabod has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3531
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 213 of 304 (411234)
07-19-2007 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by ikabod
07-19-2007 3:37 AM


I agree
ikabod writes:

Yes i do agree that that for us poor dumb humans we need simplicity BUT in this case i feel yours goes to far ... in fact i even consider the system i posted to be very very mininimal and lacking detail and should be considered a starting block on which to build a system...

I totally agree. Remember... I only started this thread to provide a "starting block on which to build a system" (without the need of any supernatural being or God).

So, this system was never meant to be a comprehensive morality encyclopedia, but simply a starting block.

as i said i think the most important thing to focus on is our doubt ..only that can keep us on the right side of the good/bad equation ... i hope ..

I agree that this is the most important aspect, and I also hope it is best to think so :)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by ikabod, posted 07-19-2007 3:37 AM ikabod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by ikabod, posted 07-20-2007 7:42 AM Stile has responded

    
ikabod
Member (Idle past 2666 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 214 of 304 (411341)
07-20-2007 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Stile
07-19-2007 3:48 PM


Re: I agree
oh well , err gosh , ok well thats that then , all we need to do is get the rest of humanity on the same track and we are done , .. can i leave that one to you , ill go sort out my desk its needed a tidy for weeks ...

but seriously i do feel part of the problem is why people want a moral encylopedia .. it saves them all the trouble and work of thinking .. which is why i hate any such system .. dont give me easy answers make me sweat for them , then i may value them and question my own judgements , and hopefull avoid the pit falls of certainty .

so im off to pray in the church of doubt , uncertainty and hope .. maybe there i can find the right questions .....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Stile, posted 07-19-2007 3:48 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Stile, posted 07-24-2007 8:36 AM ikabod has responded

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 2666 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 215 of 304 (411344)
07-20-2007 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by pelican
07-18-2007 5:52 PM


Re: How non-judgement can work
its odd i have agreed with almost all you have posted so far but here i do feel you are wrong ... good and bad are human traits .. they only exsist where humans exsist. i know i have made bad choices .. and good ones thats what being human does .

The judgement of good v. bad is about power not human rights.

yes and no , firstly i do not think there are such think a human rights beyond our human construct of how we want others to treat us and everyone else , human rights are rule to judge good from bad , and yes that is about power , the power to make and defend ones rights .

the judgement of good or bad is not about peace and harmony , its not even about justice and rights .. its about labelling things and giving them a place in an agreed social framework .. as there are no absolute good or bad's they only have the meaning we assign them , and people will have differing view on that assignment .

if you remove judgement from human experience you will no longer have humans as we know them .. we are all about judgements .. even whenm we judge it bad to make a judgement .. you cant escape except by becoming inert ...

peace and harmony , and justice are ideals .. unreachable ,but they are vital as the give us something to measure , judge , our current state against , and hopefully strive towards ...

sad to say i do not think they are humans natural state , we are a competative race , its why we are where we are , and we would mbe a different race of beings if we ever made it there ..

peopel do not want to be equal , they like ranks , they like to see who they better than ... this is why we invent moral codes ..


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by pelican, posted 07-18-2007 5:52 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by pelican, posted 07-31-2007 9:52 PM ikabod has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3531
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 216 of 304 (412229)
07-24-2007 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by ikabod
07-20-2007 7:42 AM


Re: I agree
oh well , err gosh , ok well thats that then , all we need to do is get the rest of humanity on the same track and we are done , .. can i leave that one to you , ill go sort out my desk its needed a tidy for weeks ...

Umm... okay. I never said I was planning on changing the rest of humanity. All I was doing was chatting with you. Why would you think that I'd intend a post on a message board to change all of humanity? I've mentioned that this system would work for all of humanity, or at least, no one's been able to give a reason why it wouldn't. But I have no plan, or intention, of forcing it on everyone or anyone.

but seriously i do feel part of the problem is why people want a moral encylopedia .. it saves them all the trouble and work of thinking .. which is why i hate any such system .. dont give me easy answers make me sweat for them , then i may value them and question my own judgements , and hopefull avoid the pit falls of certainty .

I agree again. Which is one of the reasons why I prefer the more basic and fundamental system I've proposed over your more in-depth analysis.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by ikabod, posted 07-20-2007 7:42 AM ikabod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by ikabod, posted 07-24-2007 9:50 AM Stile has responded

    
ikabod
Member (Idle past 2666 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 217 of 304 (412274)
07-24-2007 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Stile
07-24-2007 8:36 AM


Re: I agree
hmmm not sure your system would work for all , it is very dependant on clear honest anaylsis of the act and ones self .. and self anaylsis is not something we do well ..

nope i think we need to appoint you to do health checks for us .. ).. i cant see any other way to keep us honest ...

mind you if we could at least get everyone to agree that doing good is a good idea , and that inaction is not doing good ,we may just get somewhere down the road to where i would be nicer to live ....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Stile, posted 07-24-2007 8:36 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Stile, posted 07-24-2007 10:27 AM ikabod has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3531
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 218 of 304 (412292)
07-24-2007 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by ikabod
07-24-2007 9:50 AM


Re: I agree
ikabod writes:

hmmm not sure your system would work for all , it is very dependant on clear honest anaylsis of the act and ones self .. and self anaylsis is not something we do well ..

It is an objective system. It is not dependent on any analysis of one's self. And because it is objective, even if someone lies about the analysis anyone else can simply point out (or see themselves) the obvious. This is where the important thinking and questioning aspect comes in.

But I agree with what you're saying. My system works horribly (as any system would) in trying to make people do good things, or trying to motivate them.

But that's not what the system is for, and that's not what I'm talking about.

The system is simply for identifying the good and bad. People are still free to choose whatever they like. They just won't be confused anymore as to if they're doing good or bad. And I don't see why it wouldn't work for anyone. It's an objective system, there really isn't anything to argue over. The point is to define good and bad, so that bad people can't persuade good people into doing bad things through confusion (like war-mongerers and cult leaders and such).

mind you if we could at least get everyone to agree that doing good is a good idea , and that inaction is not doing good ,we may just get somewhere down the road to where i would be nicer to live ....

Before we can even attempt getting anyone to agree that "doing good" is a good idea, we must define what "good" is. That's what this system does, nothing more. The rest is, as you say, up to us to use our ability to think and question in order to make our choices.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by ikabod, posted 07-24-2007 9:50 AM ikabod has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by pelican, posted 07-31-2007 9:27 PM Stile has responded

    
pelican
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 219 of 304 (413672)
07-31-2007 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Stile
07-24-2007 10:27 AM


Confused? I am
Hi Stiles, do you really believe people do bad things out of confusion as to the right or wrong of an action?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Stile, posted 07-24-2007 10:27 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Stile, posted 08-01-2007 9:05 AM pelican has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 220 of 304 (413677)
07-31-2007 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by ikabod
07-20-2007 7:59 AM


Bloody hell!
I really don't know how to respond to this post. It took the wind out of my sails. You don't appear to have much faith in the human race and what upsets me is that you might be right.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by ikabod, posted 07-20-2007 7:59 AM ikabod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by ikabod, posted 08-01-2007 3:38 AM pelican has responded

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 2666 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 221 of 304 (413737)
08-01-2007 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by pelican
07-31-2007 9:52 PM


Re: Bloody hell!
sorry to dump a downer on you ...

i do have faith in human beings .. but that faith acceopts the bad and the good , the hope is today is getting less easy for the bad to hide , more news , more internet , more info , more witnesses, and i think more trust in others to listern ..
i do belive the saying for bad to florish all it takes is the good to do nothing ..
.. we do seem to have more voices pointing out the bad , forcing us off our colletive butts and to do something ... thats the hope ..

but as i said i do not think we would be the same race is we lost our competive drives , our agression , its the skill of focusing these traits we need ..


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by pelican, posted 07-31-2007 9:52 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by pelican, posted 08-01-2007 4:02 PM ikabod has not yet responded
 Message 225 by pelican, posted 08-01-2007 5:03 PM ikabod has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3531
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 222 of 304 (413756)
08-01-2007 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by pelican
07-31-2007 9:27 PM


Re: Confused? I am
dameeva writes:

do you really believe people do bad things out of confusion as to the right or wrong of an action?

Some people? Sure. Are you attempting to imply that no one has ever made a mistake in thinking about the results of their actions? I am assuming that not every member of the Klu Klux Klan is actually focused on hating black people. Some of those members are simply there because their friends are, or their family is, or that's just "how things are done" in their town. I am assuming that not every member of Hitler's army actually had a passion to exterminate the Jews. Some were following him because "he must know what he's talking about" or "no one else seems to have a problem with these ideas" or "this is my job, I have to".

By "confusion" I suppose I more specifically mean "peer-pressure".

A concrete outline for what good and bad actually is would prevent anyone from convincing other people that what "they think (or say) is good" actually is good.

I've said all along that this system isn't going to prevent or restrict anyone. All it does is identify what's good and what's bad, objectively. This allows people to see if their actions are good or bad, and therefore choose for themselves if they want to be good, or bad.

It will help some people who are confused and who would simply agree with their peers to identify for themselves what is good and what is bad.

Remember what my motive for providing this outline was. I didn't start this thread to say "everyone should act like this". I started this thread to show that a foundation for "good" exists without appealing to the supernatural, that's all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by pelican, posted 07-31-2007 9:27 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by pelican, posted 08-01-2007 4:35 PM Stile has responded

    
pelican
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 223 of 304 (413856)
08-01-2007 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by ikabod
08-01-2007 3:38 AM


Re: Bloody hell!
Hi ikabod, the truth has a nasty habit of bringing me down, but the truth is the truth. I agree that peace, harmony and justice are ideals and unrealistic. DOH!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by ikabod, posted 08-01-2007 3:38 AM ikabod has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 224 of 304 (413864)
08-01-2007 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Stile
08-01-2007 9:05 AM


Re: Confused? I am
Thanks Stile, I understand about pressure (to conform)from others, the need to belong and fear can create a follower who may be confused also. Even knowledge of wrong will not stop this happening under these circumstances. It is so difficult being a minority of one against a number of others.
I believe it is the leaders who lack the integrity and it amazes me how thousands can follow the likes of Hitler, but they do. It seems to me that right\wrong, good and bad will exist as long as we do.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Stile, posted 08-01-2007 9:05 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Stile, posted 08-02-2007 9:47 AM pelican has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 225 of 304 (413868)
08-01-2007 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by ikabod
08-01-2007 3:38 AM


This question of good and bad
Hi ikabod, I can't sleep and I'm still wrangling with my idealistic view of the world that cannot exist. That view is rapidly changing and I've held it since childhood. You really have caused my wall to come tumbling down and I thank you for it.
I have imposed this idealistic view of peace and harmony on to my children (who are now adults) and they in turn strive for the impossible.
I am beginning to believe that to live in an ideal world would deprive our children of spiritual growth. I think the experience of 'bad', sponsors expanded consciousness. We only seem to pay attention when it is 'bad' and without this discomfort, the consciousness stays where it is, in cuckoo land ha ha.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by ikabod, posted 08-01-2007 3:38 AM ikabod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by ikabod, posted 08-02-2007 4:03 AM pelican has responded

  
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