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Author | Topic: Truth is Relative | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:By "outside world" do you mean nature? If yes, then color does exist. Optically it may be viewed differently depending on the creature, but it does exist. Numbers, on the otherhand, do not exist in nature that I'm aware of. If I have misunderstood what you meant by "outside world" I apologize and ask for clarification. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
My response was an effort to understand what Parasomnium had stated in Message 12 concerning the term "outside world."
Parasomnium writes: No, some truths are relative, others are absolute. An example of a relative truth is your coloured triangle. Colour is a private mental experience, and it makes a difference whether the experiencer is a human, a dog, or an ant. In the outside world colour does not exist, so anything you say about colour is at most a relative truth. An example of absolute truth is the fact that there are infinitely many rational numbers. My comments came from a viewpoint that he meant nature. Instead he was talking about the individual experience. I understand that a male gold finch sitting on the fence will look different depending on what eyes he is being viewed through, but the pigment in his feathers remains consistent for this species. Just as the pigment for the male cardinal is appropriate for his species. No matter how each species differentiates the gold finch from a cardinal, the pigment stays the same. Again, that's in nature. Given Parasomnium's explanation of "outside world" in Message 23 I understand the comment concerning the rational numbers, but I would not agree that to be an absolute truth in nature. As far as I know, numbers do not exist in nature. How each species relates that there is a gold finch and cardinal sitting on the fence is relative to the species, but the birds are not a two. (Language Without Numbers) Again, I understand what Parasomnium was saying now that I understand what he meant by "outside world." Of course since there is apparently one language without numbers, does that negate the absoluteness of his statement? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I was addressing whether color exists in nature. Message 12 I feel that what we call color does exist in nature, because the pigment (or equivalent) exists no matter how we perceive it. It also doesn't matter whether we have a name for the "color" or not. The gold finch still has the same pigment in its feathers whether we call it yellow, bird, or just point at it.
Parasomnium writes: In the outside world colour does not exist, so anything you say about colour is at most a relative truth. An example of absolute truth is the fact that there are infinitely many rational numbers. I agree that what we say about color is relative, but when it comes to existing in nature I don't see that the statement concerning rational numbers is an example of absolute truth. Now after Parasomnium's explanation in Message 23, I understand his point; but I don't feel that it applies to nature which is where I was coming from. As I said, a gold finch and a cardinal on a fence is not a two. They are birds. That was the answer to your question. I just used two instead of one. Yes, a herd of cows behaves differently than a single cow, but they aren't numbers. They are cows. I can't point to a rational number in nature. That was my point concerning nature and Parasomnium's example of an absolute truth.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Correct (Message 29, Message 36)
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
What is your point in relation to the topic concerning my statement in Message 21: Numbers, on the otherhand, do not exist in nature that I'm aware of. and my subsequent explanations in Message 30 and Message 36?
If you are holding one object, then you are holding one object. The word one in this case is an adjective. You are not holding a one. You are holding whatever the object is.
quote:I would hand him one five-dollar bill. As I've tried to point out to you in the messages I've referenced, I'm talking about numbers in nature. Although I have a set of magnetic numbers on my fridge, when I stand on my back porch I see no such numbers in nature. Please clarify what you're getting at in relation to the topic. Edited by purpledawn, : Corrected link. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Unfortunately you aren't addressing what I was addressing in Message 21, Message 30, or Message 36. You are addressing quantity, I am not. My statement was in response to Parasomnium's example of an absolute truth.
Parasomnium writes: An example of absolute truth is the fact that there are infinitely many rational numbers. quote:I'm talking about the symbology since the statement concerned rational numbers, which should have been obvious from my comment in Message 36: I can't point to a rational number in nature. That was my point concerning nature and Parasomnium's example of an absolute truth. I agree that quantity exists in nature; but since the symbology depicts negatives, do negative quantities exist in nature? Is it a true statement that there are infinitely many quantities in nature? Edited by purpledawn, : Corrected link. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:As would I. My science and math are basic, so I was trying to understand your examples. They seemed reversed when I thought of it from a natural standpoint. I had commented more on color in Message 30 and Message 36 if you want to comment. I still have no idea what Rhrain's point is concerning the topic or what I was saying. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I understand what you are saying about perception. I guess what makes me think there is more to it in nature is when I see creatures whose "color" changes to help camouflage it or creatures whose color has "evolved" to match it's surroundings etc. The hare that changes from brown to white to blend in with the snow and vice versa. The "color" changes as the length of the days change. Some insects have the ability to change their "color" to blend with their surroundings. Some creatures have markings that help to camouflage them. What we call anything is relative to language. We can say dirt or we can give the specific chemical makeup. That doesn't mean that the ground doesn't exist outside of our mind.
quote:What shades we see may depend on the light but you still see the red color, it doesn't change to yellow. For the natural world to use "color" for camouflage or mimicry something has to exist. Maybe we're saying the same thing and I'm just looking at it differently. Don't know. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:My thoughts are concerning what occurs in nature without manipulation by man. Grinding up the wood and adding an alkaline or acidic solution is something that man has done. Color seems to have a purpose in nature, that's why I feel it is incorrect to say that "color" does not exist. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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