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Author Topic:   How can anyone say that this universe was designed for Humanity?
Geno
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 60 (42638)
06-11-2003 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by stevo3890
06-11-2003 9:19 PM


Bubble Universes
Properties of the New Inflationary Scenario of the Big Bang could explain the common observation that this universe is "ideally" suited for us.
As the NIS envisions creation of almost infinite (if not absolutely infinite) universes, there can easily be many "failed" models or versions which don't support our kind of life--in fact if there are an infinite number of them, by definition there are an infinite number of them that are unsuited--and an equally infinite (i'm not making this up!) version that could be perfect for human life.
If there are not an infinite number, but merely a very, very, very large number of alternate universes, there will still be a subset [of some number] that support human life due to the very, very, very large number of total possibilities.
The fact that ours happens to be "the one" or "one of the few" is merely an extension of the anthropic principle, to wit: if this universe was unfit to support human life, we wouldn't be here to ask the question.
I would further argue that I'm not sure this one is so "perfectly" suited for us. I, for one, would prefer one that didn't inherently cause cancer.
wr/Geno

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by stevo3890, posted 06-11-2003 9:19 PM stevo3890 has not replied

  
Geno
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 60 (42774)
06-12-2003 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by crashfrog
06-12-2003 4:41 PM


String Theory, Inflation, and Bubble Universes
My point is, with a sample space of only one universe - ours - we have no idea at all what the restrictions could be. String theory could be in error - or there could be additional laws that prohibit certain types of universes, outside of string theory.
Why are you placing the restriction of one universe? My understanding is that String theory has nothing to do with multiverses, but only seeks to describe the conditions of this universe.
The Eternal Inflation Model posits a never ending cascade of universes--why pick one?
wr/Geno

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 4:41 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 6:50 PM Geno has replied
 Message 47 by NosyNed, posted 06-12-2003 7:52 PM Geno has not replied

  
Geno
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 60 (42782)
06-12-2003 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by crashfrog
06-12-2003 6:50 PM


Re: String Theory, Inflation, and Bubble Universes
Because all your other universes are simply inferred. This universe is the only one for which we have any data.
You have an issue with the Inflationary Model (and it's implications) but not String theory, with 10 dimensions--knowing that we only have data on 4 of those dimensions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 6:50 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 7:29 PM Geno has not replied
 Message 48 by NosyNed, posted 06-12-2003 7:56 PM Geno has replied

  
Geno
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 60 (42816)
06-12-2003 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by NosyNed
06-12-2003 7:56 PM


Re: String Theory, Inflation, and Bubble Universes
Ned,
I lumped my replies in to one since I'm a little behind you in posts:
1. I thought you might find it interesting to read that there are now string theories that posit 12 (count 'em!) dimensions: Error 404...
2. In reply to your comments about the Eternal Inflationary Model (which is a variation on the Inflationary Model) see link here: No webpage found at provided URL: http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Primack/Primack1_6_4.html I apologize in advance for the heavy math. I don't necessarily espouse the point of view posited at this link, and for a short summation, the "Eternal Inflationary" model differs from other versions of the Inflationary Model by specifying that the inflation inherent in each version of false vacuum overrides the decay of the false vacuum--thereby creating conditions for the Infinite (some say Eternal) creation of universes. Not all, but most, Inflationary models call for this.
3. The Inflationary Model (and variations) are all firmly based in theoretical physics...in fact, String theory is responsible for the research which led to the formation and calculation of the Inflationary Model. It's only as speculative as any of the string theories and in fact is supported by observations from both the HST and COBE!
wr/Geno

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NosyNed, posted 06-12-2003 7:56 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by NosyNed, posted 06-12-2003 9:19 PM Geno has replied

  
Geno
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 60 (42830)
06-12-2003 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by NosyNed
06-12-2003 9:19 PM


Re: String Theory, Inflation, and Bubble Universes
Ned,
That's not the best website (too down in the weeds). This article by Alan Guth is much better (skim over the stuff you already know):
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/mysteries/html/guth_1.html
Let me know what you think after reading that.
wr/Geno

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by NosyNed, posted 06-12-2003 9:19 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by NosyNed, posted 06-13-2003 3:14 AM Geno has replied

  
Geno
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 60 (42893)
06-13-2003 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by NosyNed
06-13-2003 3:14 AM


Re: String Theory, Inflation, and Bubble Universes
Ned,
I admit ALL of this is based on theoretical physics and, your prof was partially correct--play with the numbers anyway you like--but, there are always implications in the outcomes and some of these are going to be more likely than others, some are going to match observation better than others, and some are going to be testable.
If the Inflationary Model appeals to you, as we know it does to Guth, then the most elegant solutions require an infinity of universes stretching into the future (however, as the first article pointed out, not necessarily into the past). Guth follows this line.
I've found two articles you might like:
Eternal Inflation: Mechanisms
and
Discover Financial Services
This last one talks about the non-zero probability that "something" can come from "nothing"...relates to a discussion currently going on here:EvC Forum: Can Nothing Exist?
--I may have to modify my position about "nothing" now!
wr
Geno

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by NosyNed, posted 06-13-2003 3:14 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by NosyNed, posted 06-13-2003 9:22 PM Geno has replied

  
Geno
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 60 (42916)
06-13-2003 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by NosyNed
06-13-2003 9:22 PM


Re: String Theory, Inflation, and Bubble Universes
I think it suggests that there are an infinite number of "pocket" universes formed. Thus the "universe designed for us question" goes away. There are lots of universes. Many won't be able to support any life. Some will be able to. We are, of course, in one that does. It is not designed that way it is just one of many that happened.
Precisely!
It's goofy as heck...and hard, hard to understand. But I think: these are the smartest guys on the planet--nobody is harder on them than their colleagues (the ones best positioned to refute them--not some quacks) and still Inflation Theory stands (over 20 years now) and conforms to evidence discovered after the theory was formulated --I'll take that as true prophecy! -- and is testable.
Now I just wish I knew the math...
wr/Geno

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by NosyNed, posted 06-13-2003 9:22 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by NosyNed, posted 06-13-2003 11:26 PM Geno has not replied

  
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