Christmas Star Explained

You should also note that he cannot keep his wild speculations consistent between threads.Heaven, according to Simple, used to be above the Earth, presumably within reach of tower enthusiasts that once lived in Babel. God had to step in and stop the construction to prevent these citizens from reaching Heaven. Jesus, after his death, moved Heaven to a safe location to prevent space shuttles from marring the scenery.Its difficult to piece it all together, but its clear (in Simple Speak) that Heaven was a real place above Babel. What does this have to do with the Christmas star (aka the HMS Starship Sceptre?)This spacecraft "6 times the size of a football field!" looked like a star. That must put that sucker pretty high up to begin to compare it to the pin pricks in the sky.How low was Heaven for the tower of Babel to attract Gods concern? How high was the spacecraft for it to look like a star? Why would God be riding in a spacecraft if Heaven itself was closer? Or hes delusional.Edited by Vacate, : Credit to Damouse on last quoteEdited by Vacate, : No reason given.

The size is unimportant. What is important is the portion of Heaven that was 2-3000 feet up before Jesus moved it. But there was a physical Heaven before Jesus moved it. You even said so. Its quoted in my post on this very page: So you lower your UFO but still do not see the problem: You can use whatever elevation suits your fantasies. The point is that the Physical Heaven you have proposed is below the height of Gods observatory in His spaceship.God ruined the tower of Babel project because he did not want man strolling into Heaven. Angels married women. God, presumably, needs a dock to park his ship in Heaven. These are physical attributes!2-3000 feet up puts Heaven below your spaceship. Tweak to your hearts content. Its just a story anyways, albeit not a very good one.

And...? What is the second part to this tale? Surely if they could build a tower to it they could interact with it. This is physical. This isn't that hard to understand, hell its your story! Nope, only concerned with the physical aspects thanks. You think God would create languages and move everyone if the tower could not reach Heaven anyways? This is your trip, I am just along for the ride.Secondly! Why does God need a spaceship then? Strange. Perfect, this aleviates the need to post in the tower of Babel thread. Feel free to retract when you are ready. I'm not. Your answers have brought laughter to my household. Any and all seriousness is gone the minute I see you have made a post.

Ok, so God stopped them from building a tower to heaven because... I know you have no idea, its a common theme with you. Because its stupid. Feel free to think this way, you could start wearing Nike shoes and gather converts for the next comet.

Get your stories straight. If someone could build a tower to Heaven thats a mere 2-3000 feet up (as you say) then I have not butchered your words. If I have twisted what you have said then feel free to explain in better wording.I could dredge up all your garbage once again if you would like. How many times do I have to repeat the same quotes before you will admit to the consequences of what you have said?Your UFO is still higher than the Heaven of the times (by your words). If you don't have an issue with this, so be it. If you would rather have a thread made specifically to explain why your low Heaven and high flying God Scepters are not logically contradictory I would be glad to take part. Until then I have not butchered, doctored, nor twisted the direct quotes that you have made between two threads.

Certainly not from the Bible! I got this from mind of simple.A place to begin could be Message 45 of this thread. Also take a look at the three quotes that I pulled from the tower of babel thread here: Message 36

Because it was, according to your story, below the height at which God was zipping around directing folks to Jesus. And therefore low enough that had God sat at his throne in Heaven he could have been lower to the location of Jesus' birth than had he zipped around in his spaceship. Focus! Who cares really, more important is that people could have walked into Heaven from any large hill. The location of Heaven did not change until Jesus rose to Heaven. Heaven was at the same height during the Babel era as the Christ era. These are your words how many times is nessesary to quote your words before you get it? This aint my story, I think its stupid. I would love to have someone else explain your logic! I suspect its not that others don't have the heart its more that they also think your story is stupid. If I am wrong I would be pleased to have someone logically explain how your story is possible. Should I quote again the part where you said Jesus moved Heaven after he died and went there? Got it, if you could figure out how illogical your story is you would realize the grip I have is sufficient.

Different universe? What are you talking about? Babel was not in this universe now? Ohh a different state universe! I see, wonderful - when did the state change from Babel Era State to Jesus Era State? Where in the bible does it talk about this changeover? No need. What indication do you have that Heaven was 2-3000 feet above any location on Earth? Its your claims remember, I am just asking the questions. I have several times already. Here it is again :

Heaven was a physical place that the people of Babel could build a tower to. (or it was not a physical place and God ruined the Babel project for nothing)

Heaven became non physical sometime between Babel era and Today. (or nothing need have changed as the Babel folk where confused)

You imply that there must have been "another abode" that Jesus ascended to before he began his construction of The New Jerusalem.

The physically reachable Heaven was below the location of your Starship.

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Have you any indication that either the underground paradise was not also there in the time of Babel?

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You just introduced it now from what I see. No I don't have evidence that what you have made up is true or not true. Do you have any? Why am I now obligated to provide evidence for your assertions?

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Just prove within reason, either science or the bible, that the spiritual level was still where it was in Babel's day??? You seem to want to restrict things to the concept it was, so evidence your claim..

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I make no such claims. Its not my story! I wish only to point out the claims you have made about the location of Heaven during this time and its consequence on your location of the starship in the time of Jesus. Unless you can provide a quote from the bible that indicates the removal of Heaven from its 2-3000 foot elevation above the Earth before the time of Jesus.

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Otherwise, forget about it, Jesus lived in our universe, and there was no spiritual level up above nearby then any more than now. Get it??

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Nope, I don't get it. When did it move and where in the bible does it say this to allow you to make such claims?

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Whatever they may think, if they have the comprehension to read what I say, they would not suppose that the tower of Babel spiritual level was here in Jesus' day.

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When did it move and where in the bible does it say this to allow you to make such claims?

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The Christmas star?? What, you think there really was a Christmas star of any kind??? Show us what it was, and we may see how superior your ideas are here, and how good a grip you have.

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Sorry, I am not the one making claims. Call it what you will I am only interested in YOUR stories. My stories about that time are not important for this discussion. You can call it a "Christmas Star" or the "Starship Enterprise" - all I am interested is in showing that your claims are illogical and inconsistant with your claims about the tower of Babel.

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For the last time - I don't have to provide evidence, its not my story. I have provided the quotes where you have made illogical claims and now you are obligated to further explain them, run away, or retract. Take your pick, I don't really care.

I have said "why" many times now, surely I need not repeat myself again and again only because your attension span is marked in seconds.I will however ask the same question again that you replied to (and quoted) - Where in the bible does it talk about this changeover? Your kidding right? And the conclusion I should draw from this is that God, in his infinite wisdom, actually believed they could do it. Stupid. Enough with your hazy sorta this, sorta that definitions that allow you to slide from one side of the fence to the other. Was this location of Heaven physical or not - could they have built a tower to it and if so when did this change? So now would be a good time to finally, after my many requests, provide the passages from the bible that mark the time when this changeover happened. You are mistaken. You are my only source for the story of the Starship Sceptre cleverly disguised as a star and floating above the previous location of Heaven, that moved sometime in the distant past due to unknown causes and is now named The New Jerusalem, marked the location of a barn for wise men that somehow were the only ones who thought a UFO may be important.My source for spiritual answers will remain far from this thread. Fine, provide me with the passages that state this. Impossible given that you slide around what you say Heaven was during the time of Babel. Until you finally say if it was physical or not and whether God was fooled into thinking the tower had a chance of success, I am unable to conclude much of anything at this point.What I "think went down" is not the issue. You have presented two stories that I have asked direct questions about. After multiple posts it is still not even clear to me what position you are taking about Heavens location, attributes, or the timeframe of its dissapearance. I have asked the same questions in the same manner from the begining. You have brought up Angels getting married, the location of hell, the resting place of Christ before his ascention, other such nonsence that has nothing to do with the questions as I have presented them. You have asked me to answer my own questions, create my own stories and provide evidence for them, and to even provide evidence for your assertions; during this time I have asked the same questions in the same manner.I frankly don't care what anyone thinks but I do have confidence in the fact that anyone can read exactly what I find illogical about your story. Its not hard to find, you have made me repeat it an absurd amount of times now. Feel free to finally clarify the timeline of events in such a way that it does not become illogical. I will even admit that I think you are finally creeping up on a story that may just work, I am just curious to know if it can be supported in the bible.Edited by Vacate, : No reason given.Edited by Vacate, : Spelling... again

So the Heaven that people could stroll into was relocated in the days of Peleg. Excellent.So how do you explain your previous post: What is this place? This is obviously not the Heaven from the time of Babel, so is this another Heaven that Jesus ascended to after his death? Is it still there? When did it become non-physical? This place you spoke of was in reply to Bernerbits who was quite clear about the physical nature of this location: This is the "abode" that I am curious about. This one that Jesus ascended to after "taking great lengths to prove he was still human". This place was obviously not removed/altered/transported during the time of Peleg. Sorry for the drawn out confusion, the time of Peleg Heaven nicely clears up the question of why God didn't want a tower built though.I now am forced to ask you... How high up was the other Heaven that Jesus ascended to? Is this still around? Is it still physical?*ABE* Hint - at this point I suppose you could state that this Heaven V2 is 14,000 + feet up and I will no longer claim your story is illogical. Just a hint, lets see how it goes. *ABE* I was not asking if you where kidding about the substance of my post. I was asking if you where kidding because you asked me to answer my own bloody questions!Have another look, reprinted for your viewing pleasure: If I write a book and you think its illogical, would it then make sense for me to require you to clarify how you would write the story? What does my opinion matter when its your story thats under discussion? What I think is the case is you are hoping that I will say the Bible is a story, you can then call me an athiest, and then pat yourself on the back for exposing another demon. I am not saying the bible is a story, I am saying you are inventing a story and using the bible as a reference. He set it up and then knocked it down. Works for me, but it casts a negative light on your high flyin, scepter god. So it was not physical, but it could be built up to and entered? I still have issues with your descriptions. It has not stopped you from posting about these topics until I ask you to be specific. How should I interpret this? I said it many times, it was above the location of Heaven. Work on your memory, make flash cards, sticky notes, something that will progress this discussion so I don't have to keep repeating this. I don't believe your story, as I said above. Its not nessesary to divulge this because I think its quite obvious. As for my opinion on the Bible - its not relevant to the discussion, nor is the size of my shoe. Perhaps you should not speculate about my motives, beliefs, or opinions and you would not have to worry about gag orders. Stick with the topic - your story!Edited by Vacate, : Heaven 1.98 ?

Do you mean speculation on my part or that of simple? I had at first thought you meant me, but if you do mean simple - well then we are in agreement Edited by Vacate, : No reason given.

So they couldn't walk into heaven now? Your position changes so fast I can't keep track of it. Thanks for not answering the question. Had I asked about New Jerusalem I would have said "what is New Jerusalem?" and not "so is this another Heaven that Jesus ascended to after his death?" No you didn't, you rambled on about New Jerusalem when I was clear about what Heaven I was talking about for that period of time. And you don't make sense anyways - try to clear up my specific question about why its not physical even though Jesus went to lengths to show he was still human. No you didn't you asked me to answer my own questions. Look back in the thread. If that's not what you wished to convey then quote the appropriate portions next time. Your confusing enough without me guessing what sections of my post you actually meant to quote. I believe it was a small cloud of bluish purple frogs with vampire teeth and a long fuzzy tail. They plan to rule the world by slowly taking over high ranking positions in government, and they eat babies. (hence their proximity to the newborn Jesus)There! Now that that is out of the way can we carry on with your version of the story? You where talking about the tower of Babel, I made a fast summary so I can stop repeating the same crap again and again. I see that you are unable to keep up with even that much so I will continue to repeat the same stuff over and over so you can remember what you have posted and how I am replying. I really don't care, unless your story is going to progress to a point where you say if that version was or was not physical in such a way that the tower could have been a successful project. You could live by your name for once and answer me simple. This is what I meant by never being clear so you can switch sides of the fence any time you want. No need to write it down, my memory is fine. Especially given that I have to repeat so often for you to keep up with your own story. Its quite obvious that I was aware of the Babel heaven being long gone as its part of my post that you are replying too. The problem is that you never answer any question that provides a concise answer that you don't appear to contradict sometimes within the same reply. Clarity is key here, make some attempt so this discussion can quit eating its own head. So you are saying that for me to question your story I must have one of my own. You have a weird outlook on things, but your in luck - refer to my frog story from this point on. I have no support, in case you are wondering. Nothing. (Rainy Season by Stephen King is the basis for my inspiration however)

Excuse me? Read it again: My attention is fine and my comprehension is fine. How is it that in reading what I wrote you assumed that I was unaware of the timeframe in question. I was referring to Babel, not "now". I said "now" because "now" it seems that you are saying Heaven in the time of Babel is no longer physical in such a way that the people of that time could not ascend to it. Is that clear? Do you understand?You see you never did answer my question and hence it appears you are backing away from your previous stance that the people of that time could in fact reach Heaven by building a tower. I had thought the issue was settled but it no longer appears that way. You call this a debate? I never said he did. Do not attempt to twist my words - I will just quote them again. Here you are: Notice that I never said I was curious about "New Jerusalem"? I inquired about the place that Jesus ascended to before he created "New Jerusalem". Now that you cannot avoid the place that I am talking about (the Heaven that Jesus ascended to before creating New Jerusalem) can you finally answer the questions I had about this location?How high up was this place? Is it still there? When did it become non-physical? (or alternately - when did it change to become a place that pilots cannot ascend to) What is this place? (Unless you wish to provide an alternate I would choose to use Heaven V2 from this point on) Yes I was, I inquired about the Heaven that Jesus ascended to, I did not inquire about Babel Heaven nor New Jerusalem. Good. Given that you are adverse to calling any of your versions of Heaven "Physical" I suggest semi-solid or some variation. The important point being that these semi-solid Heavens differ from New Jerusalem in that people could possibly build a tower to them or fly space craft to them. New Jerusalem is unlike Babel Heaven and Heaven V2 because it was never semi-solid.If you don't like the names that is fine, but to provide some semblance of clarity I must insist that you either accept these names or provide alternatives that you will use for the duration of this debate. My beliefs are off topic in this thread. You have made many attempts to goad me into this line of discussion but I will not take the bait. I have explained in detail why my beliefs are unimportant for this discussion if you are unable to understand this I am at a loss to resolve the issue. Feel free to create a new thread directed at what my beliefs are, but my participation is unlikely. I know you have no science or evidence to show that there was no bluish purple frogs. Stalemate. So the issue is settled? I did not say it was. You are once again trying to twist my words, this time in an attempt to portray me as confused! I said : "The problem is that you never answer any question that provides a concise answer that you don't appear to contradict sometimes within the same reply". Its YOUR STORY, I am only asking for clarity that you refuse to provide. Show me the quotes. Show me where I am displaying confusion that you have not deliberately forced upon me by refusing to answer questions, asking me to answer my own questions, attempting to change my words to avoid answering questions, and introducing elements that do not even relate to the questions I have asked. (I will provide evidence of all these accusations if you wish) About damn time. Flash cards too?

Perfectly clear, thank you. As I said, I will refer to this as semi-solid and use this quote from now on if the need arises as the definition of this term. Not at all. You cut to the chase and thats all I have requested since the beginning of this conversation. I won't pretend because you did not answer them. Here they are again for the 4th(?) time: Based upon the story you have presented, no. Based on reality, unsure and off topic. I know that, thats why I have asked about its qualities four times now. You have cleared up any issue I have with Babel Heaven and also New Jerusalem. So I can count on you not to bring it up? Its not in question so I would prefer to not bring more into this discussion than you already have. So explain the details of the Heaven that Jesus ascended to after his death (Heaven V2) so it can be ruled out as relevant to the Starship Sceptre. Interesting that you are so adament to get me to describe my beliefs when others in this thread do not require the same scrutiny. Once again I do not believe the story that you have presented and that is obvious. I have no need to present an alternate story given that its your story under question. If I had a story that I wished to bring under question I would start a new thread. This thread is not about the reality of God to me, the reality of spirits or Heavens to me, or the level of faith I have in the Bible. None of these are on topic.I have taken your story as the reality in question for the duration of this thread. If you are confident that your story can withstand scrutiny then we can procede. What I consider reality is completely off topic and unimportant for the purpose of this thread. This should not be so difficult to understand. Of course its fantasy, I made it up for the purpose of placating your desire for me to present an alternate story. I said as much. What is under question is whether your story succedes in meeting history and biblical interpretation. You have not shown it to be successful to my satisfaction and I would suggest continuing the discussion of your story and not mine. My story did at least have a good chance of securing movie rights. Oh? I could divide it up for you to better understand. Thus far you have:

Refused to answer questions

Asked me to answer my own questions

Attempted to change my words to avoid answering questions

Introduced elements that do not even relate to the questions I have asked.

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These four points are the source of my apparent confusion. Does that provide the clarity you had hoped for?

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You accuse me of not answering questions?

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Yes I do, on a number of occations. This post alone chronicles one issue that you have refused to answer my direct questions several times.

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If you want someone to relate to what you ask, stop mumbling, and hiding you true beliefs on the topic, and read the plethora of answers I gave, despite your childish behavior.

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I don't want "someone", I want you to answer the questions I have regarding the details of your story.

I can't mumble in text.

My beliefs are off topic and if you cannot understand this its your shortcomming and not mine.

Give the answers to the questions I have asked, not the ones you wish I was asking

My childish behavior appears to be within the forum guidelines thus far.

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No thanks, I don't need froggy flash cards to note a demented fantasy.

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No problem. I am just ecstatic that you have started taking notes! This may alleviate the need for me to repeatedly quote the same things to keep you from changing what you and I both say.

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I think all readers can get a handle on your little statement of faith.

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The frog story is a story not a statement of faith. If all readers didn't understand that before then they do now. I had thought that saying I used Stephen King as my inspiration would have been a dead giveaway. You are correct though, some readers need it spelled out to them in great detail.

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Nice to see what I am up against in the way of well founded opposition.

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You got that right, I can make up stories like nobodies bussiness! I keep telling you they are off topic, but I can continue to make up frog stories as long as the Mods don't shut me down.

I was not asking about the Heaven at the time of Babel or before it. For the fifth time now I am asking about the Heaven that Jesus ascended to after his death. Do you know that Jesus died after the time of Babel? I am sure you do, but if not I can give you a brief summary of the events in question. Can you seriously avoid answering a question for this long? I will repeat again:

quote:

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This is the "abode" that I am curious about. This one that Jesus ascended to after "taking great lengths to prove he was still human".

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quote:

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How high up was this place? Is it still there? When did it become non-physical? (or alternately - when did it change to become a place that pilots cannot ascend to) What is this place? (Unless you wish to provide an alternate I would choose to use Heaven V2 from this point on)

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How many times do you intend to avoid these questions? Do I actually have to quote yet again the time when you said Jesus created "New Jerusalem" after his death? Now you have switched to say this place predates him? I know thats what you believe. If I shared your view I would not be debating it. My idea on vampire frogs was based on nothing much at all, hence the reason I have continued to ask for this debate to be about your story and not mine. I know that Jesus died after he was born. You can insist that I am confused all you want, but until you can provide a quote you are accomplishing nothing. I am up to five sepperate posts where I have asked about the attributes of the Heaven that Jesus ascended to after his death and you have refused on all other attempts to provide me with answers.You have settled, to my satisfaction the attributes of the Heaven at the time of Babel. You have settled to my satisfaction the Heaven that Jesus created after his death once he ascended to the mysterious version two. Further attempts to confuse, switch, or blend these seperate discussions is simply dishonest. Carry on if you wish, but I intend to persist until the questions are answered or you retract, run away, or change your story. You see? This is yet another example of you avoiding the questions. I did not ask for the attributes or timescales of the starship - I asked for the attributes of the heaven that Jesus ascended to before he created New Jerusalem. Version two!This is exactly why I said that I must insist that you either use my terms defined as I stated or present alternatives. You still manage to palm the pea long after I requested that you stop this dishonest behavior. I have shown examples where you have refused to answer questions. Care to show where I have done the same? I refuse to answer my own, that is true. I also refuse to answer the ones that are off topic for the reasons that I have stated multipe times now. The only solution I can see from this point on is for a moderator to step in and rule my religious beliefs and faith in the bible as either on topic or off. I will not be suspended due to your requests for me to do so. I still have a few outstanding questions regarding your story. Are you seriously suggesting that I should make shit up about the attributes of the Heaven that you have presented in your story? Why should I start making stuff up about your story? Thats the stupidest thing I have heard on these forums ( and I have seen plenty of stupidity) I changed them from present to past state, divided them into seperate lines. This was at your request because you felt that having them in a sentence was gibberish. I have asked the same questions regarding one simple aspect of your story five times now and you still have not answered them. Who else do you suggest should decide what relates and what doesn't? You manage to say something each time you respond but its never what I ask for. Suggest a judge and lets bring him or her in to decide. Feel free to provide quotes and justification any time you are ready. I am simply attempting to understand your story and must ask questions that pertain to the topic. If you find the questions "ridiculous" perhaps it is due to the nature of your story? If you find the four points I presented to be drivel I am perfectly willing to provide examples, as I suggested when I posted them the first time. Interesting story, will it stand up to questioning? Will you answer the questions if they are made?