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Member (Idle past 3402 days) Posts: 301 From: Burlington, Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: How should one interpret foul language? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Trixie Member (Idle past 3734 days) Posts: 1011 From: Edinburgh Joined:
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Buz, you said
People who use these terms should stop and think what they are saying ..... Sometimes a person using these terms does exactly that. I could have said
Go take a flying fornicate at a rolling donut
Go have flying sexual intercourse with a rolling donut
Go take a flying shag at a rolling donut
Go and flyingly copulate with a rolling donut And many, many more. However, the expression I chose doesn't have the same grammatical difficulties at the examples given. I would have got the same meaning across if I had said
Bugger off
Piss off
Fuck off None of those, however, express the feeling that the instruction given is thought, by the writer, to be more productive than the inane drivel being spouted in the first place. I could have gone all Scottish and said
Away and play on the motorway (freeway for US cousins)/play tig with the traffic
Away and pu' flo'oers (go pick flowers)
Away and claw yer simmit/raffle yer yumyum
Away and boil yer head and fry yer face while yer at it I don't think I'd have been understood by the majority on this board. On the other hand
Go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut is understood by everyone on the board, says exactly what I wanted to say, in the way I wanted to say it and conjures up such a lovely image. Profanity does have it's place and, as said by someone else, it's a lot cheaper than a psychiatrist. Sometimes the topic of discussion is nothing to do with mechanics, science, food, nutrition and everything to do with personal attacks and these personal attacks, while containing no profanity, are more offensive, more insulting, more foul and more immoral/amoral than the use of profanity.
I see the use of profanity as a sign of moral, mental, cultural, and communal depravity. The more it prevails, the more it depraves and corrupts. You can manage all of this without using profanity. If the only yardstick you are going to use in determining the above is the use of profanity, then you're going to miss alot of moral, mental, cultural and communal depravity.
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5900 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Hey Buz,
I certainly understand where you're coming from ("from whence you come" sounds too pedantic even for me - sorry about the dangling participle). As I said, I seldom use profanity, at least in writing. Unless, of course, the use of such in context provides an emphatic, unambiguous, and direct emphasis. Certainly Trixie's use of the idiom served that purpose, in my opinion. Sometimes a nice, short expletive serves well to express a poster's feelings. It can also be cathartic - to which I attribute Trixie's use in the Hill Billy case. In the same vein, I do occasionally use profanity when I do something stupid (normally, I talk pretty much the way I write, pedantic as that might sound - old habit). The short, explosive exhalation that accompanies words like "shit" and "fuck" really IS cathartic. Just yesterday I bonked my head on the side of a house climbing out of a pit I was digging for a composting latrine. I most assuredly used several appropriate expressions in that case! There is also another use of profanity - as a medium of creative expression. Although my command of the idiom is woefully limited, I can remember several people of whom I was in total awe at their command of creative invective. I knew a man who could literally swear for five minutes straight without repeating himself once. In short, I disagree with your contention that "nice folks" equates to "no profanity". In the appropriate context, it is a quite useful tool of language.
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SGT Snorkel Junior Member (Idle past 5732 days) Posts: 23 From: Boone, IA USA Joined: |
There is also another use of profanity - as a medium of creative expression. Although my command of the idiom is woefully limited, I can remember several people of whom I was in total awe at their command of creative invective. Interesting. I once saw a report of an interview George Patton had given. I can't find it, so I won't try to quote, but Patton said something to the effect that he used cuss words when he wanted to be understood and when he wanted to be understood quickly he would give it to the person with both barrels. A Sergeant Major (now retired) and I were talking about that. I said, "You know, swearing has often been called the language of a fool. The average soldier is woefully under educated. It appears that cussing is possibly the only way to get across orders in a way that everyone can understand them."
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Trixie, what has sexual intercourse got to do with asking someone to leave? That's my point which you appeared to miss. Why demand they go and have sex? Wouldn't it be better to just ask them kindly to leave?
That's why the wisest one who ever lived according to the scriptures outside of Jesus himself, king Solomon said "a soft answer turns away wrath." Wouldn't the world be a better place if more would follow that advice? The apostle Paul or one of the other apostles also said, "be angry and sin not." Cool One can learn to keep their cool in anger so as to keep the peace. How many victims have been killed over the centuries over meanspirited communication like teenagers on our streets who get into namecalling arguments involving profanity; perhaps even wars where thousands were killed etc. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Sarg, Patton was known for profuse profanity. Other great generals were not. Patton could have shouted orders in a commanding tone and accomplished as much and perhaps more.
I think of coach Tom Landry who led the Cowboys to victorious fame over the years. I doubt that he used profanity to any extent if any during those years. George Washington who led the colonies to emancipation from tyrany in the bloody Revolution was a very devout Christian who likely never used profanity. I've read much on him and there's no indication that cursed, swore or used any form of profanity. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Thanks for the response, Quetzel. Did your head feel any better after the vocal volley?
Neither of my boys now in their 30s use profanity. I made an effort when they were home growing up to keep my cool when things didn't go well for some reason or other. Thankfully it paid off. Between them they have six children in their families and they are training their children also to refrain from profanity. That's the way it works. Children tend to profanity if they grow up hearing their parents using it. My dad used profanity regularly until he got "saved" by receiving Christ at about age 35. Thereafter he quit that pretty much cold turkey along with the ciggies. There were six of us children in my family, all Christians who do not use profanity. I credit my parents for that. We didn't dare to use it in their hearing so we just learned to express our frustrations without it. As I've said before, I get along fine with folks, some of who use profanity profusely. My point is that the less it is used the less it is propagated among the youth for the next generation. Back in the 1930s to about 1960, seldom did one hear any child use prfanity and relatively few women used it out in Wyoming where I grew up. Over the 72 years of my life I've seen it steadily become more prevalent in the home and out by children, women and men. It's one of a number of things which have went downhill in America. That's why I say I see it as a sign of the depravity of a culture. I'm not a preacher but by not the readers of this likely wish I'd stop preaching so that's all for now. God bless! BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Trixie Member (Idle past 3734 days) Posts: 1011 From: Edinburgh Joined: |
A soft answer may indeed turn away wrath, however in the thread in question wrath was not the problem but nasty, vicious, snidy responses to soft answers were. Additionally, when soft answers result in more of the same obnoxious behaviour it can be hard to see the merit in giving soft answers.
Additionally it may come as a surprise to you but, guess what? I'm only human, just like every other poster on the board and we all have a point at which we go "ping". I reached mine many posts before I said what I said. My comment was straight, to the point and expressed exactly what I meant it to express in a manner which could not be misunderstood, deliberate misunderstanding being the MO of that particular troll. I will also point out that Jesus didn't restrict himself to a soft answer when he was confronted by a gaggle of money-changers in the temple. He didn't go back and apologise to them either.
How many victims have been killed over the centuries over meanspirited communication like teenagers on our streets who get into namecalling arguments involving profanity; perhaps even wars where thousands were killed etc. I think you'll find that most violence has nothing to do with the profanity and everything to do with the namecalling (I'm using only your examples). Insults are insults whether profanity is used or not. Meanspirited communication is meanspirited communication whether it involves the use of profanity or not. For examples of meanspirited communication, see the previous posts in the thread in question. Once you've read that, come back and tell me that my use of profanity was the low point. I don't think you will, since dishonesty, deception, deliberate misrepresentation, malicious mocking and goading lace the posts in question. If you want to see the behaviour that begets anger you need look no further. In real life, those disposed towards violence are more likely to react to behaviours of that sort, since they are not neutral. Profanity is. The words surrounding profanity determine the mood of the communication, not the profanity itself. All that does is emphasis the intended mood. Can yu give examples of wars which have begun over the use of profanity? You see, AFAIK, WWI was about expansion and the invasion of a neutral country (see Von Schlieffen plan), WWII was about expansion and world domination, the Korean War was about fighting based on political ideology, Vietnam was about figting political ideology.....you get the picture? Wouldn't it have been better if all the combatants had, instead of fighting, just yelled "FUCK OFF" to each other and walked away? A soft answer may indeed be good at turning away wrath, it does absolutely nothing (read bugger all if you want to) to turn away an invasion force. You brought up the analogy of violence and war so tell me which wars have started over profanity?
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5900 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Hey Buz,
I really don't disagree completely with your position. As I said, I seldom use profanity. I just think you're overstating the case.
Did your head feel any better after the vocal volley? I don't know if better really describes it, although the venting was useful in that context. It certainly served as a succinct expression of my feelings about my own stupidity in running into the side of a building head first. It's not as though they put the thing up while I was down in the hole, after all. It also served to draw the attention (and concern) of the pretty Peace Corps volunteer whose house (and latrine) it was. That served a useful purpose in and of itself.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0
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Something I just bumbled upon at Nonreligious Questions
His article title:
quote: The entire message:
quote: My "bolding" of one paragraph. MooseProfessor, geology, Whatsamatta U Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith "Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien "I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Some weenie writes: The true defender of harsh and vulgar words wants to keep them as harsh and vulgar words. That means keeping the general politeness norms in place so that the words keep their expressive power on those occasions when we employ them. People who say the word fuck every other word eventually inure those around them to it, after the initial shock. A word becomes too routinized, too ordinary while giving no offense and it loses all of its emotive power. I never understand this arguement. Whatever sense I can see in it is basically "if the word is used a lot, then it loses it's power." Which can be taken two ways:1. The majority of people in the location under context are swearing often. -This would only serve to make someone who doesn't swear often stand out like a sore thumb. Then, when that person actually does swear the power in that word use would be magnified. 2. A few individuals are swearing often and "lowering the power of the word for everyone else"... somehow.-If this is the situation (which it generally is), then the swearword isn't being overused in the first place so it doesn't make any sense at all. If a few individuals swear a lot... that doesn't mean the words are being overused. That's the definition of "a few individuals"... that means that a very low number of people are actually doing it. A few individuals swearing as often as possible does not make those words "overused" for any total forum. It does, however, make it glaringly obvious that other people are not swearing often... in which case (again) it's making the use of swearwords more powerful for those who use restraint. Conclusion:If word usage is linked to power and you are concerned with that power, all you have to do is use personal restraint to use those words less and their power will increase whenever you do decide to use them. If any number of other people use those words it only serves to highlight how little you use it yourself. In fact, your best case scenario would be if everyone else uses those words all the time. Then it would be exceptionally obvious that you never swear. And then, when you do... by golly the "power" of that usage would be higher than when Johnny said that thing to that teacher in grade 2. Obviously, if you ascribe to this "words have a power level and we need to protect it" idea, then there is no rational reason for you to request other people to stop swearing. The only reason behind using such an argument is an attempt to control other people's use of certain words because you yourself are judging other people to some standard you've got shoved up your own ass. So fuck off.
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rueh Member (Idle past 3689 days) Posts: 382 From: universal city tx Joined: |
I could have said Go take a flying fornicate at a rolling donut Go have flying sexual intercourse with a rolling donut Go take a flying shag at a rolling donut Go and flyingly copulate with a rolling donut Sorry this doesn't add much to the discussion but it's way to much fun to pass on. My favorite is aeronautical intercourse with a pirouetting perforated pastry :{)}}} Edited by rueh, : No reason given.'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat' The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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I looked back at what the hell I wrote in this thread to make sure I wasn't repeating myself....
"Vulgar" basically means "common". The Vulgate Bible was written in the vulgar or common tongue, the language of the people, Latin, instead of the original Hebrew and Greek. When the Normans conquered England the old Anglo-Saxon words for bodily functions, etc. which were often four letters long, were replaced by their Norman French equivalents, which were typically much more long-winded and thus sounded more cultured. The Anglo-Saxon words, spoken by the commoners, were "vulgar". The more acceptable versions used by the upper classes were derived from the Latin, which had ceased to be vulgar. Now centuries later in Canada we have a House of Commons, populated by commoners, where it's improper to call somebody a liar. Rather, he's "misleading the House", which is apparently more acceptable because it's more long-winded. As many of you know, I'm a bit anal about words (which isn't quite the same as being an asshole). Edited by ringo, : @#$% spelling.
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