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Author Topic:   Great religious falsehoods
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 54 of 106 (471967)
06-19-2008 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by iano
06-19-2008 9:22 AM


Cause and Effect
The result: there is no evidence that there is any god like entity imposing any effect upon this world or universe.
No evidence acceptable to Science you can only mean.
I guess so. Empirical evidence of some sort - Yes.
If God is the cause of physical effects in the physical universe then the physical effects are themselves obviously empirically observable.
How we could relate these effects back to actually being evidence for (or against) an immaterial God is a more difficult question.
The usual method seems to be to invoke God where there is no material explanation available. But I think you would agree that this is a diminishing God and a poor method of investigating this question.
Therefore it would seem to me that we are restricted to seeking evidence for God with reference to his physical effect on his favored creation (i.e. man) and our requests, needs and desires. If God genuinely has an effect on our physical lives then can we in any way link this back to God?
So the questions then are -
1) Does God indeed have any direct physical effect on anyone (answering physical requestes in prayers, physically punishing evildoers, physically rewarding the faithful and righteaous etc. etc.)
2) If God does have any such physical effect can we trace these effects back to God in any way at all?
How would you answer those two questions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by iano, posted 06-19-2008 9:22 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by iano, posted 06-20-2008 3:32 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 59 of 106 (472069)
06-20-2008 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by iano
06-20-2008 7:50 AM


Re: Please state your position
If God has no intention of having himself empirically evidenced then it can be expected that any prayer experiment will fail to evidence God due to Gods inactivity.
Why would God go out of his way (i.e. amend his actions) in order to evade empirical evidence of his existence?
If he was going to answer a prayer to save a dying relative (or whetever) are you really suggesting that in certain circumstances God would think "Hold up, This could be used as evidence in favour of my existence. Better not answer that one after all. Next."
He also seems to have been much less concerened with supplying (or not supplying) evidence for his existence in biblical times. Why the concern now and not then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by iano, posted 06-20-2008 7:50 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 06-22-2008 10:25 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 66 of 106 (472116)
06-20-2008 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2008 8:42 AM


Religious Laws
I think they were against having a state sponsored religion like the Church of England. Not that they wanted no religious inspiriation for laws. Maybe not purely religious inspiration, but there's nothing wrong with having religion "in" the laws.
I fundamentally disagree.
Laws have to be rationally founded to be viable. Even if we disagree with a particular law there has to be a basis on which it's merits (or otherwise) can be rationally argued. Society will benefit, national security demands it, the rights of the individual etc. etc. etc. etc.
If a law is ultimately based on "I believe in something unprovable" then why should anyone who does not share that particular belief or ideology follow that particualar law? No viable argument can be made in favour of that law.
The reasoning behind such laws effectively amounts to 'Because I say so'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2008 8:42 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2008 2:29 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 72 of 106 (472146)
06-20-2008 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2008 2:29 PM


Re: Religious Laws
I agree with you on the need for rationality. That's what I meant by saying not purely religous inspiration. There should be more to it than that. And with the example of dry counties, there is. But they still were inspired by religion.
Fair enough. I would go onto argue that if there is rational reason for a particulat law then the religious inspiration is just an unnecessary middle man in terms of advocating and implementing said law.
I want to see religion taken out of our laws as specified in the constitution.
Now, he never clarified what he meant by "taken out", but I read it to mean that these reigious inspritations shouldn't be there and that the constitution specifies this. I think it is a common misconception that the seperation of church and state means no religion in the laws whatsoever. I don't think this is what the 1st was meant to say.
I know next to nothing about the US constitution. But if there are good rational reasons for laws they, and the arguments for them, should stand on their own merits without need for reference to religious doctrine. No?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2008 2:29 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 73 of 106 (472148)
06-20-2008 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by iano
06-20-2008 3:32 PM


Re: Cause and Effect
I would go so far as saying that it would be impossible to do - unless God desires that he be evidenced in this way.
OK. In the case of an omnipotent God this would obviously and indisputably be true.
Every material explanation available is but a partial explanation - meaning that there is no material explanation for anything.
It depends what questions are asked. If we assume that there is a 'why' to many physical phenomenon (why am I here? etc. etc. etc.) then this is correct. However if we accept that there is no 'why' your statement is less obviously true.
However religious answers to such 'why' questions are equally unsatisfactory as eventually we just end up pointlessly questioning the mind of God (or whatever). In short such quetions have no answers. Material or otherwise.
1) Does God indeed have any direct physical effect on anyone (answering physical requests in prayers, physically punishing evildoers, physically rewarding the faithful and righteous etc. etc.)
2) If God does have any such physical effect can we trace these effects back to God in any way at all?
I think certainly yes to the first question and see no impediment given the means at God's disposal. But I don't see why his doing so need be traceable (by classically empirical means) so the answer to your second question would be not necessarily. Given good reasons for his not being so traceable, my own personal opinion is he has made sure he cannot be found empirically
Why wold God make sure that he canot he found empirically?
How would this work in pratise? Would a dying child who would have been saved through prayer (forexample) not be saved if that prayer and it's results were being monitored for evidence of God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by iano, posted 06-20-2008 3:32 PM iano has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 89 of 106 (473368)
06-28-2008 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by iano
06-22-2008 10:25 AM


Re: Please state your position
But as far as your question: why would he 'hide'? goes. The answer is fairly straightforward to my mind. If he made himself empirically available then you would have to believe in his existance. And if he doesn't want that you have to believe in his existance then he must 'hide' his existance from you in that way.
Should we consider the bible evidence for the existence of God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 06-22-2008 10:25 AM iano has not replied

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