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Author Topic:   Homeopathy
Rahvin
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Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 117 of 142 (476736)
07-26-2008 9:58 AM


Cut 'n' Pasted to here, since Granny is right...
It appears that you and some others here do not understand the science of homeopathy or how homeopatic methodology works.
It appears that you don't understand the function of a placebo.
Homeopathy consists of diluting a medication tot he point where there is no longer a detectable amount of the active ingredient.
If such a thing worked, then every time you drink a glass of water you should also give you the effects of any and all substances ever dissolved in it.
1. Homeopathic treatment is a very safe, cheap and effective means of treatment, often effecting relief in both acute and chronic ailments.
It has been effective when applied properly by trained practitioners in some chronic ailments which have been considered incurable by conventional medicine.
Placebo. Demonstrate a reputable, peer-reviewed study in which homeopathic "medicine" was shown to have a significantly different effect than a sugar pill.
It's no wonder it's safe and cheap - it is in most cases nothing more than a sugar pill.
2. My hay fever pills which are the most effective that I've ever found are homeopathic. They are relatively cheap remedies which I found on my own in our local health food outlet.
Your personal experiences amount to nothing, Buz. The result could be placebo, changing weather conditions, or any number of other factors even up to your own subjective inaccuracy in being able to tell the difference.
3. Homeopathy works most effectively to strengthen and maintain a healthy immune system in the body holistically. It mimics the disease so as to stimulate the body's own immune system which in turn wards off the ailment. It is a simple scientific concept which makes logical sense as well.
Bullshit. It's diluted to the point where, if you had the volume of the Atlantic ocean in medication, the active ingredient would amount to a scant few drops. It's completely undetectable, and in most cases the chances of you actually ingesting even a single molecule of the "active ingredient" in a given pill are astronomically small.
4. Children are agreeable to it since the medicine is usually administered as a sugary pill. Perhaps that's one reason why some mistakenly regard it as quack medicine.
5. Homeopathic medicines are easy to administer. Homeopathic medicines are usually dispensed as sweet sugar pills, which are very easy to take. Due to this reason, children readily agree to take homeopathic remedies.
That's because they are sugar pills! Sugar pills, with no detectable active ingredient.
6. Homeopathy, by enhancing the whole body's immune system, effects a more healthy body in general so as to eliminate the need to depend upon the $$$ medical establishment and to avoid some of their dangerous and $$$ practice.
7. Being holistic, it does not require the need for multiple specialists in the various segments of health care.
That's right, the doctors who spend their lives learning and practicing tried-and-tested techniques of medicine under controlled and objectively verifiable circumstances are just out to get your money. The newagey college dropout hippy down the street selling snake oil obviously knows better than any silly doctor! Why pay more when they'll remove your appendix?! Save money and take a sugar pill for your appendicitis!
I'm sure that if Michael Savage were to grace us with his expertise on this he would be able to cite much more as to why the science on this is valid.
Again, Michael Savage is a very intelligent fellow indeed. One can widen their knowledge and understanding by listening to him on a number of topics.
Michael Savage is a radio talk-show host. In this case he is making comments regarding psychiatry, not nutrition. You notice how he says "in my opinion" whenever he says bullshit like this? That's because he knows that it's bullshit. You take what he says as gospel truth becasue he agrees with your other twisted and ignorant views and because he has a PhD. But Savage does not have a PhD in child psychology, and is completely unqualified to make the statements he made.
Anyone who believes in homeopathy is an idiot. You're taking sugar pills, Buz, nothing more. It is objectively demonstrable to be nothing more than lies and flim-flam. And frankly I wish Savage could have his PhD revoked if he genuinely supports homeopathy, which consists of nothing more than a bunch of quack snake-oil salesmen making scads of money off of gullible little twits like you.

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Buzsaw, posted 07-26-2008 4:50 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 128 of 142 (476868)
07-27-2008 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Buzsaw
07-27-2008 10:03 AM


Re: Why Homoeopathy is Bunk
However hundreds of thousands of deaths per year are tolerated by FDA via doctor prescribed pharms, not to mention the millions of other terrible side effects allowable by the drug industry products.
Potentially lethal side effects are why prescriptions are required in the first place. Chemotherapy, for instance, isn't good for you...but if you have cancer, the side effects are worth it.
I mean, how dare the FDA allow, for instance, a drug that treats HIV but makes the patient incredibly nauseous almost constantly? The nerve of the "medical establishment" giving people antidepressants to prevent suicide and constant misery when those same drugs have a small chance of causing heart problems?
There's no magic sugar pill that will treat disease with absolutely no side effects. In fact, did you note the label on all of those food supplements you're so fond of? The snake oil salesmen are forced to put it on their "medication" - "This product is not intended to treat any disease and has not been evaluated by the FDA."
Gee, I wonder why homeopathic "medicines" wouldn't want to be tested?
Perhaps the same reason James Randi was able to imbibe two entire boxes of homeopathic sleep aids with no ill effects...or even getting drowsy.
You've been using flim-flam medicine. You've bought the utterly ridiculous concept that further dilution of a substance actually makes the concentration stronger, an idea any Jr. High chemistry student would be able to tell you is completely fucking stupid. You honestly believe the homeopathic idiocy that "like cures like," as if a highly diluted substance that would make you nauseous in a detectable concentration will actually do the opposite when diluted to the point where it;s unlikely a given pill contains a single molecule of the so-called "active ingredient."
Idiot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Buzsaw, posted 07-27-2008 10:03 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 133 of 142 (477009)
07-29-2008 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Buzsaw
07-28-2008 11:07 PM


Re: Probability Factor
I would say that the probability of something happening via the intelligently designed extreme dilution of pollens relative to homeopathy are greater than the probability that abiogenesis happened randomly with no ID and progressed into surviving organisms.
Except those two have absolutely nothing to do with one another, and probability really doesn't have anything to do with either (except of course in the sense that in homeopathy the statistical likelihood of actually imbibing a single molecule of the "active ingredient" in a given pill is astronomically tiny).
Your red herring attempt to redirect the conversation towards abiogenesis, a subject you know nothing about and argue against only with personal incredulity, is asinine.
Let's redirect you back to the topic.
Homeopathy involves the use of substances shown to cause the very symptoms they are intended to cure, diluted to the point where for all real purposes the actual substance is no longer in the supplement. For instance, a sleep aid will contain caffein, a substance objectively proven to wake you up, diluted to the point where the caffeine is undetectable.
The level of dilution varies, but is typically les than 1 part in 10^20. Some go as high as 1 part in 10^10,000.
Let's do some very simple chemistry, Buzz.
Do you know what a mole is? A mole is Avogadro's number of molecules of a substance. Basically, it's the total atomic weight of a single molecule, in grams. So Avogadro's number worth of Hydrogen atoms would have a mass of 1 gram, because Hydrogen has an atomic weight of 1. A gram of Hydrogen contains 6.02x10^23 Hydrogen atoms.
A mole of water would have a mass of 18 grams (16 for the Oxygen, 2 for the 2 Hydrogen).
The compounds typically used in a pill are significantly heavier than water in terms of atomic wight (this is different from density, remember). But let's just use water, because it's really easy for me.
If you have a substance diluted 1 part per 10^23, in 18 grams of water you would have only 6 molecules of the substance in the solution.
How large are your homeopathic pills, Buzz? I'm betting they're less than a gram. Maybe a few hundred milligrams? And they'll be composed mainly of a substance with an atomic weight much higher than water. This means a single mole, 6.02x10^23 molecules of the substance, would weigh a lot more than 18 entire grams. You're consuming a small fraction of a mole of the pill compounds in a single pill...meaning that, at a concentration of 1 part per 10^23, you didn't take any actual medicine at all.
Let's be more specific. Let's assume you're taking a sugar pill. The atomic weight of a molecule of sucrose is 342.3 - so a mole of sucrose, 6.02x10^23 molecules, would have a mass of 342.3 grams. If you're taking a homeopathic pill that contains a concentration of 1 part per 10^23, and you take two 800mg pills (so you've taken just 0.004674 of a single mole, or 2.8x10^21 molecules), you haven't even taken a single molecule of the actual medication. In fact, you have a 1 in 50 chance per 2-pill dosage of actually imbibing a single molecule of the stuff. Aside from the effects of the sugar pill itself, you could take millions of those pills and still not have a concentration of the substance in your body sufficient to have a noticeable effect.
Note that this was assuming a 1600mg dose, which is pretty freaking large. If you're taking a 200mg pill, or worse even less...
Well, it really doesn't matter. Even with the giant dosage, you're taking a sugar pill with nothing else. You're actually more likely to imbibe some random molecule of a different substance from simple impurities in the manufacturing process (dirt, dust, metal from the manufacturing process, etc) than you are to imbibe the "medicine."
So how exactly, Buz, does homeopathy "work" if you aren't actually taking any of the supposed medication?! The homeopaths give flimflam explanations about the "vibrations" and "memory" of water and other chemicals carrying the "vibrations" of the medicine to the body...but this is bare assertion on their part. There is no actual data that suggests this, in fact the data we do have suggests that they're making it all up.
Think of it another way, Buz. If homeopathic medication is stronger with more dilution, and you drink groundwater that has come into contact with trace amounts of toxic chemicals in its long residence underground, surely you must be immune to the effects of every super-diluted substance not actually contained in that glass of water!
Homeopathy is complete and total bunkum. Flimflam. Garbage. Nonsense. Snake oil. It's a tool for those unscrupulous enough (and sometimes stupid enough to believe their own bullshit) to make scads of money from gullible twits like yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Buzsaw, posted 07-28-2008 11:07 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Buzsaw, posted 07-30-2008 6:11 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 137 of 142 (480612)
09-04-2008 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by rohndawson
09-04-2008 10:31 PM


To define Homeopathy - it is the art and science of healing the sick by using substances capable of using the same symptoms.
You forgot the other entries:
quote:
2. Snake-oil
3. Bullshit
4. A way for immoral individuals to take advantage of the hopes of a gullible public and deprive them of all of their money

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by rohndawson, posted 09-04-2008 10:31 PM rohndawson has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 140 of 142 (616109)
05-19-2011 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Theodoric
05-19-2011 2:36 PM


Re: Homeopathy question
Theodoric writes:
I was at our local co-op today. They have lots of great things; organic fruits and veggies, free range eggs, real milk; but they also cater to the alt med crowd.
I was looking at some homeopathic remedies and wondered something. If this snake oil worked, why would you need to buy a tincture more than once? The "active" ingrediants are already diluted 25k or more times. Why not just add more water when you are down to a drop or two? According to how the adherents claim homeopathy works, as long as you preform succusion the vital energy should be transferred. Homeopathic adherents claim the more diluted the stronger. So these companies should only have to sell one bottle of tincture to each family.
Can't wait to hear adherents explain why they have to buy the commercially prepared tinctures each time.
Obviously, if you dilute the ingredients even more, you could overdose on the active ingredient that's no longer present! The caffeine molecule that's not likely to be present in your sleeping pill would be even less likely to be present, and you'd overdose on the absence of caffeine and go to sleep forever!
...also, they'd stop making money.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Theodoric, posted 05-19-2011 2:36 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
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