EvC Forum: Homeopathy

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Topic: Homeopathy

Annafan

Member (Idle past 4610 days)

Posts: 418

From: Belgium

Joined: 08-08-2005

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Message 40 of 142 (426933)
10-09-2007 5:48 AM

Reply to: Message 39 by johnfolton
10-09-2007 3:03 AM

Re: It's Chemistry

You are grabbing at straws, really.

Even if you could come up with evidence that water could somehow retain a memory of substances under some exotic circumstances, you would still have several mountains to climb. Homeopathy has holes in it on every possible level. That's why any critical thinker will quickly classify it as so unlikely that it is not worth further consideration. Alternative explanations based on self-delusion and fallacious thinking in general are much much more plausible.

- why such predictable *selective* memory? Why wouldn't water retain memories of everything else it gets in touch with?
- how is it supposed to deliver this effect to the body to "heal"? How could this possibly be discerned from the "background noise" of all the involuntary intake of water that will inevitably have memories of SOME kind? Does application to the subject mean that the memory is perfectly wiped in the process?
- given the whole "memory" theory does indeed turn out to have substance, it still wouldn't explain how being MORE diluted is supposed to make a homepathic substance MORE effective. This aspect is SO counter anything we know, that it is just laughable!
- show us the steps taken by homeopathic pharmaceutical companies to make sure that the "water" they start with, indeed does no longer contain any residue memories. Quality control, anyone?
- keeping in mind the very naive and unscientific methodology used by Hahneman to determine the effects of each substance, what is the chance that homeopathy would actually work AFTER ALL, just by chance? I mean, one lucky shot could be believable, but being right "in the wrong way" ALL ALONG THE LINE?? I'm sorry, but you've lost me there...

The ONLY way to counter all this, would be to have double-blinded studies with a very very pronounced positive result in favor of the effectiveness. Something that could not possibly be attributed to placebo effects.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", to paraphrase Carl Sagan.

Edited by Annafan, : (spelling)

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	Message 39 by johnfolton, posted 10-09-2007 3:03 AM		johnfolton has not replied

Annafan

Member (Idle past 4610 days)

Posts: 418

From: Belgium

Joined: 08-08-2005

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Message 43 of 142 (426957)
10-09-2007 9:46 AM

Reply to: Message 42 by nator
10-09-2007 9:18 AM

Re: Lindalou Avoids The Question

nator writes:

quote:
Second question, are all homeopathic mixtures diluted 30x?

No, but most are.

Those are supposed to be the most powerful ones, IIRC.

Don't think so... That would probably be "...a 200c dilution of duck liver, called Oscillococcinum" (Wikipedia homeopathy article). I remember reading about how this lead to the concept of the $20.000.000 Dollar Duck. Since one duck is enough to supply a year's worth of duckliver extract for this homeopathic medicine.

I should really go into that business, lol

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	Message 42 by nator, posted 10-09-2007 9:18 AM		nator has not replied

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	Message 44 by Annafan, posted 10-09-2007 9:52 AM		Annafan has not replied

Annafan

Member (Idle past 4610 days)

Posts: 418

From: Belgium

Joined: 08-08-2005

Normal Thread Display

Message 44 of 142 (426958)
10-09-2007 9:52 AM

Reply to: Message 43 by Annafan
10-09-2007 9:46 AM

Re: Lindalou Avoids The Question

To clarify:
From Just a moment...:

"Now for the Principle of Minimum Dose”it turns out that most homeopathic solutions contain nothing at all. Sad to say, the last remaining privately owned drug store in my neighborhood features dilutions of Oscillococcinum® a "200C" product. That’s a dilution number, cunningly calculated to guarantee that the original ingredient has been diluted several million times, and has surely exceeded Avrogado’s number. The magic numbers have been calculated by Dr. Stephen Barret as follows: "Dilutions of 1 to 10 are designated by the Roman numeral X (1X=1/10, 2X=1/100, 3X=1/1,000, 6X=1/1,000,000). Similarly, dilutions of 1 to 100 are designated by the Roman numeral C (1C=1/100, 2C=1/10,000, 3C=1/1,000,000, and so on). Most remedies today range from 6X to 30C, but some carry designations as high as 200C. Oscillococcinum, that 200C product "for the relief of colds and flu-like symptoms," involves dilutions that are even more far-fetched. Its "active ingredient" is prepared by incubating small amounts of a freshly killed duck’s liver and heart for 40 days (18) .

Were a single molecule of the duck’s heart or liver to survive the dilution, its concentration would be 100200. This huge number, which has 400 zeroes, is vastly greater than the estimated number of molecules in the universe (about one googol, which is a 1 followed by 100 zeroes). Quackwatch”a website well named for a duck authority”quotes the February 17, 1997, issue of U.S. News & World Report as reporting that only one duck per year is needed to manufacture the product, which had total sales of $20 million in 1996. The magazine dubbed that unlucky bird "the $20-million duck" (19)"

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