"Imagine no religion..."

No more EvC forums. How you imagine lack of religion would achieve all that, I don't know. If you'd said "less" instead of "no more" I might be able to help you argue the case.

We can already tell from experience that (1) doesn't happen. The reality appears to be undramatic. These two charts show levels of theism in two traditionally monotheistic areas of the world. {ABE} Dark blue is high theism. SourceThe western European countries which have never had anti-theistic regimes and where any religion can be practised freely are the most interesting to me. Note the variety. The big fall off in religiosity in Europe has come since 1950. It's interesting, because we may be looking at the least religious societies ever.A period under anti-theistic regimes doesn't seem to have made much difference in the east, which shows the same variety. That makes sense to me. Who the hell would change their private beliefs with a change of government?Edited by bluegenes, : clarifying chartsEdited by bluegenes, : correct link

Well, what would you think that they might have to do with it? If having an extraordinary percentage of the local population in prison and western world leading murder rates amongst those still outside the walls are symptoms of hedonism, and we're asking whether atheistic societies might be more hedonistic than superstitious societies, what would the graphs tell you?

Are you sure you do? There are two graphs, and considerable variations between and within them.Do you think the light areas are noticeably more hedonistic than the darker areas?Here's some information for a very blue area of one of the graphs: Wow! Keep on Bible bashing.

I'd argue that you can look at societies that are already half-way to the no religion point, and there are some in Europe, and assess if they're half-way towards your number one suggestion, or heading that way. You're correct in pointing out that I don't give statistics on hedonism, but some of those low religiosity countries are actually well known for moving in the direction of your second suggestion (like Sweden, for example).I merely thought that imagining possible future societies without religion, which is what I took the topic to be about, might be aided by looking at the least religious societies in existence. I took the topic (and the Lennon song, and your two speculative possibilities) to be more about the latter, so we may have been at cross purposes. It's later that you speculate about a paleolithic tribe without religion. I agree that being with or without religion would certainly not automatically make a society "good" or "bad", even if we could easily define those. However, I will point out that the least theistic societies are amongst the most practical. If you sign a cheque to aid some people who are in serious need, I think it would be headed to one of the countries which is more religious than your own, not one of those half-non-religious ones.

Where are these places?

Atheism, in its broadest sense, is a lack of belief in gods, or non-theism. That condition is no more a religion than a lack of belief in fairies is a religion.Within the category, some atheists could certainly be described as having religions. They could be Buddhists or Animists, for example, or followers of any non-theistic religion.There's no reason why atheists shouldn't believe in elves or ghosts if they want to. This wiki description is reasonable, I suppose (my bolding):

quote:

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Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods, or the rejection of theism. It is also defined more broadly as synonymous with any form of nontheism, including the simple absence of belief in deities.

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Many self-described atheists are skeptical of all supernatural beings and cite a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of deities. Others argue for atheism on philosophical, social or historical grounds. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism and naturalism, there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere; and some religions, such as Jainism and Buddhism, do not require belief in a personal god.

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The term atheism originated as a pejorative epithet applied to any person or belief in conflict with established religion. With the spread of freethought, scientific skepticism, and criticism of religion, the term began to gather a more specific meaning and has been increasingly used as a self-description by atheists.

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Atheism - WikipediaAtheists like me do not claim to know that there are no gods, just as you cannot claim to know there are no fairies. How could such things be known?Atheism requires no faith, just lack of it.

I'd be inclined to agree (although some might point out that the Japanese are better off without their living Emperor/God of W.W.II). You mean you were actively trying to change that situation? So, surely they should be sending missionaries to Salt Lake City and Kentucky.

Buddha was a philosopher of sorts. Buddhists can believe in Gods, or they can be atheists.