"Imagine no religion..."

“ Imagine No Religion . . It’s easy if you try.”No more religion in the world would be impossible, of course, but it would be interesting. Instead of religion to guide the people along, they would need to reason for themselves and make decisions on a different basis”one that didn’t pit belief systems against each other in a succession of wars, which are proven to be endless. And religion sucks money from the pockets of its victims, too, who can scarcely afford it. But don’t tell them they can’t buy their way to heaven. Don’t tell them that Jesus is a bigger fraud than even Mohammed (or you, like Rushdie, could get a contract sent out on your life). Don’t tell them that more people have suffered and died in this world for the sake of religion than any other cause.Imagine no religion. Imagine a time when a POTUS candidate need not declare his/her belief if God to get elected. What a wonderful world that would be! Furthermore, in a world without religion there would be no need for atheism, and no need for all that fear and loathing about what happens to you after you die. Oh, what a wonderful world it would be! No more stress, no more disease, no more poverty, no more corruption of the little children . I propose a thread to imagine what would be possible in a world without religion.”HM

So true! I have also wondered about the distribution of wealth. Without religion to pick the pockets of the poor, they might not be so poor anymore.The one thing that would happen in a world without religion would be a huge rush to fill the vacuum left by the dissolution of all the souls. In their places I would expect a bud to grow and flower in the name of The Golden Rule, which was always nipped in its formative stage by religio-politics.”HM

And do you suppose that religion helps to improve our value system that serves to "undergrid ethical, political and economic decisions"? If so, how?”HMEdited by Hoot Mon, : addressed wrong poster

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"Vegetarian": An old Indian word for "bad hunter." ”Sarah Palin's bumper sticker

It's the first rule of karmic law”Don't do anything to anyone else you wouldn't want done to yourself”the rule the Christians claim to be their own. (But try looking it up in the Holy Bible.)”HM

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"Vegetarian": An old Indian word for "bad hunter." ”Sarah Palin's bumper sticker

Well, for starters, there would be no need to continue the religious wars extending from the days of Canaan up through the Crusades and on to post-WWII Zionism. Take that out of the historical equation and what do you have left? What you have left is a whole lot of money to fund universal medicare and other social programs.America was founded not on religious principles but on the separation of religious principles from state principles. In effect, America sought to "Imagine no religion." And it's been an uphill struggle ever since to keep religion out of politics. It's like trying to keep rats out of a dumpster.”HM

But I blame our thirst for oil on the Protestant ethic and the spirit of capitalism. Max Weber made it clear, at least to me, that today's capitalism is an outgrowth of the Protestant religion: to prove you are one of the electi you need to be financial successful. In other words, if God made you rich then that is proof that He has chosen you as member of His favored clutch.And there you go, right back to religion. I may have to concede to you on that point.”HYM

gluadys, do you think The Golden Rule is a religious admonition?”HM

One hell of a good question, Bluejay! Doesn't the Marxist-Leninist doctrine, if effect, displace religion with communism? In a world without religion we might not need either capitalism or communism. Someday I think we will evolve there, but we humans are still juvenile delinquents in our growth toward that level of maturity. I predict the evolution of religion will also follow suit: instead of the focus being on getting rich as hell and going to heaven, it will shift over to compassion, charity, and good will. The only thing standing in our way will be testosterone, so all the men will need to be castrated. And all the women will probably need to be lobotomized...Nah, it will never work. In the absence of religion, there would be a cascade of hedonism to fill the craven void. And that, as we know, is good business for capitalism.”HM

I have to agree. Paleolithic tribes were not yet ready for a utopian democracy where reason and logic displace belief and spirituality (i.e., the primitive condition). It's an evolutionary thing. First we have the spooks and then we get the facts (i.e., from Jaynes' bicameral mind to fully formed consciousness). In a world without religion there would be no place for the spooks to hide. So the real questions becomes: If we abolish religion do the spooks go away? And if the spooks go away will something else replace them?"Imagine no religion..." could be taken to mean "Imagine no delusion..."”HM

But I can't help imagining what a world would be like without institutionalized delusion. I want to know what would happen if religion disappeared from the face of the earth. Would humans revert to predator-prey relationships amongst each other? Or would we finally drop our penchant for natural aggression in favor of universal cooperation? Is the eat-or-be-eaten gene so fixed in the human population that we could never evolve beyond our natural instincts? Religion does not seem to help very much in that regard. But science certainly does!”HM

But we're going to evolve somewhere, and I'm guessing we'll leave religion behind when we do.In an interesting book by Authur S. Iberall, Toward A General Science of Viable Systems (1972), he sees the evolution of moral code in five stages:

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1. The "traffic policeman" code. The crush of human traffic requires that an orderly sequencing of human conduct is developed. (Possibly this came into existence 6,000 years ago, in the law 4,000 years ago.)

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2. The code of justice. The rights of other individuals and groups are to be respected. (Possibly this came into existence 4,000 years ago, in law 2,000 years ago. It is quite generally codified by today, with only a few exceptions. Our own Constitutional Congress in capturing the intellectual development of that century represented the beginning of its general codification.)

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3. The code of love. Beyond respecting other individuals' rights, the individual is fully responsible for the quality of his interpersonal relations with others. (It possibly came into existence 2,000 years ago but has yet been accepted in law and is only practiced to limited extent.)

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That takes us to, say, Christianity. But what does the future hold for us beyond "the code of love"? (I might even say the code of religion.) Iberall goes on to speculate:

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These are the moral codes known to man today. Two more may be projected.

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4. The code of responsibility. Beyond being responsible for the quality of his interpersonal relations, the individual is fully responsible for the consequences of his acts. (Barely in existence, it may be considered to be the foundation for real professional ethics. Today, we would be considered too ignorant to know how to apply this morality. It is not unreasonable that a growth of all the sciences may make this a feasible code within 2,000 years.)

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5. The code of olmniscience. Beyond responsibility for the consequences of his acts within his existing capabilities, the individual is responsible for modifying the characteristics of other individuals for the optimal preservation of the species. It would be considered improper meddling. Yet a target of 4,000 years hence is not beyond imagination.)

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If Iberall's sequence is meaningful, it implies (I think) that religion will be left behind for something a whole lot better.”HM

Depends on what he said. In Matthew 9:34-36 Jesus said:

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Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but as sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

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I'm no so sure what the Prince of Peace is prescribing here, but it is not what I usually think of as Christian family values. This would be equivalent to Newton coming by to revoke the laws of gravity. Science, per se, is neither good nor bad in a moralist sense. Manipulation comes from those who would subvert the scientific method. But science has a filter for that; it's called the peer review. Religion has no such thing...until someone like Luther comes along. We have Luthers everyday in science, but in religion they come along once every millennium or so.”HM

Why would you want to call atheism a religion? Wouldn't that be like calling a vacuum a material object?”HM

Doesn't this bring into question the value of delusion in society? Is mass delusion good, bad, or neutral for social order? And is the abolishment of institutionalized delusion necessary for human progress?”HM

There is no "afterlife" in any biological context. And since I don't own a soul there is none for me in any spiritual context either. That leaves only a literary context, which may actually work. Mark Twian's death has been greatly exagerated ever since he died.”HM