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Author Topic:   "Imagine no religion..."
gluadys
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 57
From: Canada
Joined: 08-22-2008


Message 5 of 61 (479966)
08-31-2008 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by bluegenes
08-31-2008 7:59 AM


Hoot Mon writes:
No more stress, no more disease, no more poverty, no more corruption of the little children .
How you imagine lack of religion would achieve all that, I don't know. If you'd said "less" instead of "no more" I might be able to help you argue the case.
Yes, I have difficulty seeing that too. No more religion doesn't mean no more value system. And some sort of value system would still undergird ethical, political and economic decisions like whether to go to war in Iraq and what kind of welfare system (if any) to support.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by bluegenes, posted 08-31-2008 7:59 AM bluegenes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Fosdick, posted 08-31-2008 11:30 AM gluadys has replied

  
gluadys
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 57
From: Canada
Joined: 08-22-2008


Message 10 of 61 (479991)
08-31-2008 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Fosdick
08-31-2008 11:30 AM


Re: Is religion ethical?
glaudys writes:
No more religion doesn't mean no more value system. And some sort of value system would still undergird ethical, political and economic decisions like whether to go to war in Iraq and what kind of welfare system (if any) to support.
And do you suppose that religion helps to improve our value system that serves to "undergrid ethical, political and economic decisions"? If so, how?
”HM
No, I don't think so. But I can't see a lack of religion bringing about agreement between say libertarians and socialists on the role of government. There would still be sharp disagreement in the US over whether or not to institute universal medicare, for example. Or whether to use the tax system as an instrument of wealth redistribution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Fosdick, posted 08-31-2008 11:30 AM Fosdick has replied

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 Message 11 by Fosdick, posted 08-31-2008 2:25 PM gluadys has replied

  
gluadys
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 57
From: Canada
Joined: 08-22-2008


Message 12 of 61 (480024)
08-31-2008 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Fosdick
08-31-2008 2:25 PM


Re: Is religion ethical?
hootmon writes:
Well, for starters, there would be no need to continue the religious wars extending from the days of Canaan up through the Crusades and on to post-WWII Zionism. Take that out of the historical equation and what do you have left? What you have left is a whole lot of money to fund universal medicare and other social programs.
What you don't have is agreement that you should fund social programs. It is neither lack of money nor religious opposition that is preventing spending on social programs now. And, while a religious card may be played to help justify a war over oil, we all know the real reason is oil and if religion is not around to justify it, then some non-religious reason will be found.
The alternative would be for the politicians to be honest about their realpolitik. Not an attractive option for most politicians.
America was founded not on religious principles but on the separation of religious principles from state principles. In effect, America sought to "Imagine no religion." And it's been an uphill struggle ever since to keep religion out of politics. It's like trying to keep rats out of a dumpster.
”HM
Actually, that is incorrect. It was founded on the separation of religious institutions from state institutions, a very different matter from separating religion and politics. In fact, it was quite some time before even the institutional separation was applied at the state as well as the federal level.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Fosdick, posted 08-31-2008 2:25 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Fosdick, posted 08-31-2008 5:16 PM gluadys has replied

  
gluadys
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 57
From: Canada
Joined: 08-22-2008


Message 14 of 61 (480076)
08-31-2008 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Fosdick
08-31-2008 5:16 PM


Re: Is religion ethical?
gluadys writes:
And, while a religious card may be played to help justify a war over oil, we all know the real reason is oil and if religion is not around to justify it, then some non-religious reason will be found.
But I blame our thirst for oil on the Protestant ethic and the spirit of capitalism. Max Weber made it clear, at least to me, that today's capitalism is an outgrowth of the Protestant religion: to prove you are one of the electi you need to be financial successful. In other words, if God made you rich then that is proof that He has chosen you as member of His favored clutch.
And there you go, right back to religion.
Yes, I think Weber is quite right on that point. Calvin was the first Christian theologian to justify charging interest on a loan, and without that, capitalism could not really have got off the ground.
Of course, proving--to yourself or anyone else--that you are one of the elect, is contrary to the whole notion of predestination, but a natural human instinct, nonetheless.
I guess what it comes down to for me is whether one ties "religion" to a God-concept. In terms of social and economic organization, of decisions over war and peace, capitalism or socialism or the mixed version of the welfare state, I don't think it makes any difference whether there is or is not an overt appeal to God. The powers-that-be have no more difficulty justifying themselves in terms of atheistic Marxism than in terms of Calvinistic capitalism or feudalistic Catholicism.
If you include non-theistic ideologies under the rubric of "religion" that's a different kettle of fish. Would the quasi-religion of patriotism or the glorification of militarism disappear if we simply did away with theistic religion? I think not.
But can we imagine not only no religion in terms of communities of worship, but also no religion in terms of political loyalties and economic ideologies.
Now, that's a real challenge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Fosdick, posted 08-31-2008 5:16 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
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