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Author | Topic: How did Monkeys get to South America? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: ditto for you. You have two standards.
quote: I'm sure you see it that way, but I don't think you use a fair standard. I'm sure you disagree. If human testimony is so unreliable, then why is it used in a court of law?
quote: strawmonkeys, sir Theodore, straw monkeys.
quote: We call it moving the goal posts, and I don't think that's so good.
quote: I'd like to observe a good demonstration of abiogenisis sometime.
quote: Actually I do, Tell ya what -- I'll give you a dead man with all his RNA and DNA perfectly in place and all you have to do is bring him back to life. That should be easy enough for a scientist with a plan, and I'm even conceding all the other points about putting the right chemicals together in the right place to make it easier for you.
quote: That's how you see it. As I said already some of your own peers are not totally in agreement with you. Perhaps I should bring their studies to your attention. enuff mud-slinging ok??
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: I wouldn't have a job without science. but 200 years from now, how much of the new stuff do you think will still be used? We laugh at people for thinking the world was flat and that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, but this changes.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: So what do you think a reasonable distance is for raft travel -- 1700 miles, 1500 miles, 500 miles? I would wonder if the modeling assumptions for south america were fudged to make the distance a whole lot closer 40 million years ago, as I hear in some of the explanations. The typical explanation says South America was closer 40 million years ago -- well how much closer?
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
Continuing On the subject of South American and African continent seperation and new world monkey rafting travels during the Oglicene.(*1)
quote: I made no such claim, only an honest error past my bedtime. That's one reason I provided a sample calculation. A simple mistake -- yes, As for "really really silly" nahhh ... just human error. Get used to it, I have to all the time. The error doesn't do very much to help east west seperation however, which was the point I made. Hence I need to correct the anwer by a factor of 10. The result is 300 miles almost due north. This does something for an east west separation but not much. The east-west separation is circumferential like when a balloon expands. Here is the model I used: UNAVCO I have done quite a bit of research since the last post, and there is a way to figure out the chances of a raft endeavor from africa to south america. I postulate it now for those that want to take it on: 1) Provide the estimated distance beween the continents 40 million years ago, based purely on geology, and include no influencing factors from evolution theory that might bias the answer in some way: UNAVCO 2) Use a navigation model to estimate ship drift. Figure how long it takes a ship to drifp across on ocean currents. This is the best model I could find and it isn't good enough: Ocean Motion : Data Resources : Ocean Surface Current Visualizer 3) Tell us how long a monkey can go without fresh water, propose a way it could find water on a floating mass of vegetation. Also, propose a way to convert salt water to fresh water, or drink salt water exclusively and survive for any period of time. Perhaps the monkey was adapted to this -- provide evidence. 4) Most wood that floats is dead already. Green wood can sink rather easyly. Is there any evidence of a massive vegetation floatilla a thousand miles from any shoreline? 5) If the flotilla theory makes sense then there should be plenty of successful transatlantic crossings for many plant species, both to and from South America. A good tidal wave can wash the seeds quite far inland. Here's an idea for verifying the result and make yourself famous at the same time, win chicks, academic accolades, and public speaking engagements worth a nice sum of money courtesy of an old world creationist that accepts robust species adaptation: Drop bottles on the african coast and see how long they take to reach the south american coast: http://www.csun.edu/.../EarthScience/OceanCurrentReading.pdf from source:
quote: these toys traveled 900 miles as the crow flies in about 10 months (unless I crapped on my calculator again):
quote: quote: I calculate Sika Alaska to be 900 miles away using this calculator: Calculate distance and bearing between two Latitude/Longitude points using haversine formula in JavaScript more on the same: Friendly Floatees spill - Wikipedia I wish you every success. It's a daunting task. I've put enough time into this and I have 23 more posts in my mailbox. I'll have to forgo them. Feel priveleged, and good job checking the math for me!! ;-) Edited by Engineer, : (*1) added RSS feed search engine key words at beginning of post for search engine magnets.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: I don't think it will stay afloat very long unless it's all dried out like drift wood. What's going to hold the raft together when the sea storms bring rain and the rough water that comes with it? Green wood sinks rather easily too. In my experience freshly cut green trees make good cover on the bottom for fresh water fishing. Even very dry wood gets waterlogged and sinks to the bottom. I've banged up a few boat propellers on submerged timber sneaking beneath the surface. Edited by Engineer, : No reason given.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: I'm offering you a chance to be famous, and outlined the scientific method you can use to prove your point. Just go back a few posts.
quote: huh what?? me thinks you are in the wrong thread. We are trying to solve the rafting puzzle.
quote: I think evolution is pretty intelligent design myself. If I was the big guy, I wouldn't want to micromanage everything.
quote: such as???
quote: I gave you the computer models already. The burden of proof is on you to prove that monkeys crossed on a raft, or have you stopped making that claim?
quote: gripe gripe gripe
quote: The only trouble is that green wood sinks. Dried out wood with no water in it floats rather well for a short time, then it sinks.
quote: The burden of proof is on he that claims a hypothesis. I have none, but you do so get busy.
quote: aww come on dude. I asked how monkeys got across and you get all fussy. There are ways to prove it and I've already given you the tools myself. I spent about 3 hours on the research in post 74, and let's see your calculations now. You can be rich and famous. You should be thanking me.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: So are you proposing the monkeys on the ss africa used chain saws to cut off the leaves and branches so the flotilla wouldn't sink? Or maybe they used roaps to hold their flaotilla together like the picture:
How far out does a flotilla go into the ocean before it dismembers or sinks? Edited by Engineer, : picture added for reference
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
ok I'll give you one Theodore -- sorry for the hard time. Wood can float for quite a long time depending on the SG which can be as low as .5. Tree leaves, on the otherhand pose a different problem, and their bouyancy is unstable:
http://www2.hendrix.edu/...Web/labmanual/Photosynthesis.html When I was a kid I remember breaking off a rather large red oak limb while swinging out over a lake on a rope ( while I was still evolving through my tree climbing stage). Red oak is pretty dense, and it floated, but barely. It was in good daylight. After a couple of hours I pushed it under water and it sank to the bottom. I think the leaves took in water, but can't prove it. It went from floater to sinker in about 2 hours. It was right at dusk. I concluded that a tree with leaves is more likely to float during the day than during the night. Does that make sense? A floatilla of debris is going to break apart in the kind of strong ocean currents that are needed for transporation, but that's my opinion. Edited by Engineer, : No reason given. Edited by Engineer, : added time of day information regrding photosynthesis. Edited by Engineer, : dumb typo
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
In summary, if a monkey made it across from africa to south america I think the real problem was finding drinking water. After a week or so, surely a large island of floating debris in ocean waves and swirling currents would of scattered apart. I'm going to look at how the igauna got from south america to Fiji.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: It makes sense to me that a tree with leaves on it, floating on a body of water, is heavier at night than at day because of photosynthesis. Can we not agree on this? I supplied a laboratory experiment link that explains bouancy relative to photosynthesis. I asked if you can agree on its conclusion. If we can't agree on a standard and repeatable biology experiment performed by competent scientists in a laboratory, I don't think we are going to get anywhere. As for pine trees, do you agree that their specific gravity is relatively low? The childhood experience I presented was red oak. Do you agree that red oak is more dense than pine? If we can not agree on hydrostatics we also have an issue.
quote: Could you kindly provide some links to your evidence like I've done with the scientific computer models for ocean currents, plate tectonics, and such?
quote: You aren't prenting any that helps solve the problem with rigor. That's the problem that I see here, not that monkeys rafted, but that you accept it without better evidence as people accepted a flat earth using occum's razor. Others have presented links and I appreciate their effort.
quote: As one lab manager told me, a good data set is worth a thousand expert opinions. Without good data we start with an opinion, and state it as such as I have clearly done -- opinion is not dogma as you imply it to be. An opinion is a good logical starting point for problem-solving. I see no point in debating this and all the scientific results this method has produced. I am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. Everyone's opinion counts equally in the world of problem solving, and mutual respect produces an answer we can all accept. Admittedly, I could have treated you better and I apologize. Could you do likewise?
quote: Good. Provide your best link to show you are more than just talk. Here's mine: Logical Fallacies and the Art of Debate While you are at it, supply evidence that a mile long clump of debris has ever been spotted far from a shoreline. This would be a considerable navigation concern for anyone in the shipping trade.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: I think you're the one logically out of whack. I don't believe monkeys rafted across 40 million years ago and survived, though it's astronomically improbable.You don't believe a religious teacher named Jesus ever existed 2000 years ago. I can't prove that monkeys didn't raft across and survive 40 million years ago.You can't prove that a teacher named Jesus never existed 2000 years ago, though it was reported by several different people, and it remains in jewish tradition today. You say the burden of proof is on me regarding monkey rafting.Shouldn't the burden of proof be likewise on you to prove Jesus never existed? Yet if we were debating bible history, the burden of proof would once again be placed on me. This seems to be a double standard.
quote: ok I changed my avatar just for you. I thought you'd like my hypothesis. ;-)
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: Please provide your link, It doesn't come up at all on my search engine. That's pretty unusual. A 3 foot alligator was spotted in the mountains of North Carolina. Either way of getting there is totally ridiculous. Somebody put it there obviously: http://www2.brevard.edu/reynoljh/fbgator.htm
Also dead shark was found in Lake Michigan: MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos
quote: It probably was from africa, but wouldn't last more than about 10 days without fresh water.
quote: It would take several monkeys without any competitors to establish a new population. This would take several trans-atlantic rafting expeditions before one of them finally succeeded in establishing a population. I think the most likely way of crossing and surviving would be on a tossock floating island: Floating island - Wikipedia
It would take a big rain storm or a tidal wave to remove one of these from a swamp. Either could potentially tear it apart. Edited by Engineer, : requested link on green monkey
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
ok I found the link about Charles Sutherland Elton after a google search. The same link says the monkeys got to South America probably by island hopping.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: Other sources say it takes more than once because there were natural competitors in south america at the time. The time period surmised is about 35 million years ago. There are other threads on the internet that have already covered this debate. At 35 million years the separation between continents was about 1400 km.
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Engineer Member (Idle past 5547 days) Posts: 65 From: KY, USA Joined: |
quote: Some evolution experts think the raft from africa borders on ridiculous. The so-called "millions of years of rafting opportunity" never existed unless monkeys found a time machine. I like my flying monkey idea better than that. Perhaps you should be debating your views on this evolution forum: Cryptozoology.com Here's an opening post from someone considerably more expert than you are:
quote: Edited by Engineer, : No reason given. Edited by Engineer, : No reason given. Edited by Engineer, : added additional hypotheses
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