Christian Laws

Your comment was on the Jewish system of worship, my reply was in response to that so I assumed you would recognize the 'They' as the subject suggests...the Jews....not the christians. And please remember that the jewish followers did NOT remain a part of Judaism. You talk about 'Pauls Followers' as if they are of a different religion when they are not.We are talking about Jewish people who became followers of Christ and left Judaism, and we are talking about Gentiles who became Christian and left their pagan religions.Christianity was one religion for ALL people, for jews and gentiles under one banner 'christianity' and they all followed Christ. No, he did not say to follow them as in being their 'followers' Look at the context. Jesus was condemning the leaders for 'seating themselves in the seat of Moses'they were supposed to be teaching the law of Moses, not seating themselves in the position of Moses as a law maker.And Jesus is not talking about 'Oral Laws' he is clearly talking about the Law of Moses. Two very different things. Oral laws were things like'a husband should never walk side by side with his wife in public'
'you must not perform healing on a sabbath because its a form of work'
'dont only wash your hands before a meal as moses said, but wash right up to your elbows'these and many more like them are laws the jews made up in addition to the mosaic law. Jesus condemned these sorts of additions because they were not from God but from man. Thats why the 'Oral Traditions' are not written in the OT, because they were never a part of the laws given by Moses...they were additions.
Jesus was even accused of breaking the law when he healed a man on the sabbath. But jesus knew that the Mosaic law did condemn healing on a sabbath. Can you please show me where and how the jewish christians followed Judaisms Oral laws?Im sure you know that Judaism and Jew are two very different things...can you explain what you mean by each of these terms just so i know we are on the same page.

What you are really asking here is :What does God require of us?This thread will be finishing soon, I will start a new thread on this question and it will be based on the 'application' of christian laws based on the writings of the NT.

the difference being that Paul was commissioned by God, and Paul promoted Gods lawsJust as Moses did, just as the rest of the apostles did, just as Jesus didGod cannot come to you personally to tell you what he expects from us, but he saw good to choose certain men to do this for him. i dont think i stated that it was a lawIn msg 54 i said
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Jesus knew Gods laws perfectly and he gave us a living example of how to worship God acceptably. So for us to be acceptable to God, we should strive to live as christ lived.
...Paul took it a step further and said we should have the same mindset as Jesus
________this isnt a law, but lets put it this way, Can someone be a follower/imitator of Christ WITHOUT having the same attitude that christ had?Jesus way of life and worship was acceptable to God because Jesus had the right attitude. His attitude stemmed from love and a desire to please God.If we do not have that motivation and attitude, how can we ever be approved by God?

and Jesus lived and taught Gods standards and his followers were taught to imitate him...this does not mean that he taught anything contrary to the law of moses because that law was Gods standards.But that Mosaic law required punishment and sacrifice for sins. The mosaic law was a Package. If you were following it, you had to also apply its judicial prescriptions for sin. Many of which were death.So this meant that if you committed a grave sin, you were to be put to death, there were no second chances under that law.Under the Law of Christ, forgiveness could take place and a person could have mulitple opportunities to repent and be forgiven for their sins. It was the same high standard of morality handed down from God, but in a different package. because there are christian laws and there are consequences for christians who do not abide by them. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

hi purpledawn, Just so i undestand where you are coming from, could you stipulate what some of the jewish 'oral laws' are that you are referring too and where in the scriptures Jesus is teaching them?

The Essene's were a sect of Judaism, as were the Pharasees and the Saducees...all of them remained a part of Judaism so they can rightly be called a sect.But Christianity was not considered a sect by the Jewish religious leaders. In fact, Paul was on trial in that scripture you quote for teaching something 'contrary' to Judaism. Look at the context of the passage. Paul is giving a defense at one of his trials. Of what was he being accused? Of being a sect or of teaching something that contradicted the Jewish laws?

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Acts 21:27 'they laid their hands upon him, 28crying out: "Men of Israel, help! This is the man that teaches everybody everywhere against the people and the Law and this place and, what is more, he even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place"

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If Paul remained a part of Judaism, why did he write that all meats are acceptable for eating, and gentiles are also acceptable to God? this is a very dubious piece of information. Jerome's writings were of the late 3rd century and Hegesippus (???) who knows!'This one was holy from his mother's womb.' This wasnt written by the apostles or any inspired writer. Mary had only one 'holy' child and that was Jesus. There is a reason why not all christian writings made it into the canon. I dont mean to contradict you, but the Law of Moses was complete long before the Talmud was written down. Moses was told to WRITE down all the laws God gave him, which he did. The 'ORAL' law which was promoted by the sect of the Pharasees during the first centuryCE, was strongly opposed by the Sadducees and other Jews. It only became accepted after the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70CE. i hope you are kidding.You claim that the christians followed the 'Oral law' I asked for evidence of them following the oral law and give me the babylonian talmud!

exactly...they know what Jesus and the apostles taught and therefore know they are not required to follow the mosaic law.anyway, this has been a lovely whirlwind discussion and I think its been done to death as i'm sure you'd agree.

im sorry, i missed this one so this will be my lucky last. I showed you many laws but you dont seem able to grasp them as laws in the broad sense that the greek word carries.You dont believe there are consequences because cannot see that the laws are designed to bring one into an approved standing before God. When you loose that approved standing, you are no longer apart of the christian congregation and loose your relationship with God...thats tough love. well your probably right
I'll have to keep working at it I guess.

thanks purpledawn for dragging me back in... the jews of later times were the ones who created the 'oral' torah. It wasnt at Gods direction, it was as a way of teaching the law of moses...unfortunately they began to view the oral law as more important then the mosaic laws.It was the oral laws that Jesus condemned when he said the following:

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Matt15:1-: 'Then there came to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying: "Why is it your disciples overstep the tradition of the men of former times? For example, they do not wash their hands when about to eat a meal." In reply he said to them: "Why is it you also overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition? For example, God said: 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'Let him that reviles father or mother die the death.' But you say: 'Whoever says to his father or mother, 'Whatever I have by which you might get help from me is a gift dedicated to God,' he must not honor his father at all."
And so you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you, when he said: "This people honors me with their lips, yet their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep paying respect to me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines."

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these oral laws clearly violated Gods laws about honoring ones mother and father...so it easy to understand why Jesus condemned the use of them. your links dont explain how the christians taught the oral law...can you explain it. Surely if they did, their writings would show them teaching such...do the NT teach the oral law or not? If yes, show me.

you read a command from the mosaic law and ask why christians dont carry it outLOL pay attention!

James spoke wrote about 'the perfect law that belongs to freedom’ and pointed out that the one who persisted in it would be happy. (james1:25) so im not sure i understand what you mean by that.
It could have been the 'prescriptions' of the Mosaic law he was referring to, but other writers spoke more specifically about the 'freedom'Are you saying that James meant christians were 'free' because they no longer had to observe the Mosaic law?If so, this implies that if one lives by Gods laws, they are no longer free.
and i dont think that we can view Gods laws in such a way. If you think about Adam and Eve, they became slaves to sin and death by their 'disobedience' to Gods law...before then, they were happy and free living by Gods law.
The isrealites on the other hand were in bondage to Egypt until God freed them. He told them that as long as they obeyed his commandments they would have freedom. If they obeyed his laws, he would protect and provide for them, if they failed, he would allow surrounding nations to enlsave them. This happened time and time again for Iseal, they'd be ok for a while obeying, then they'd disobey and a rival nation would come against them and enslave them.So in line with that reasoning, its more logical to me that the freedom being spoken of is a freedom from 'sin' as opposed to freedom from the mosaic law.
Youv'e probably noted in this discussion that while i've said that the mosaic law was no longer binding, its standards and principles were. This is because Gods laws are based on love so they are perfect laws. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

The only simply answer for this question is this:Live as christ lived. Love as Christ loved. If we strive to do that, then God is pleased and we will get a favorable judgment.However, this requires accurate knowledge of what he taught, and what he believed and why he acted the way he did. The only place to get that knowledge is from the writings of the NT.

hehe you're a tough cookie to crack purpledawn! Here is a scripture that, in a nutshell, shows what we must strive for

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1timothy 3:16 "Indeed, the sacred secret of this GODLY DEVOTION is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.

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what Paul was saying here is that godly devotion is a sacred secret that has been openly shown to us in the life of Jesus. Because of the way Jesus devoted himself to the worship of God, he was Godly Devotion in the flesh.Godly Devotion is what our lives should reflect if we are to please God. Jesus was the perfect example of godly devotion, because he knew God better then anyone because he existed with him before any other creature was created...so he knew God intimately.Jesus behaved in the same way God behaves. He was able to say that "he who has seen me, has seen the father also" because he imitated his father perfectly. This makes his example a perfect one to 'try' to follow. (i say try because we cannot imitate him perfectly, if we could, we would be perfect)To understand the sort of man Jesus was we have to look to what is written about him. The Gospels show a man of warmth and deep feeling. Read the accounts in Mark 10 and you'll see how people of all ages and backgrounds found him approachable. On more than one occasion, he took children into his arms. People were comfortable around him because of his sincere, genuine interest in them. Jesus often went out of his way to help people, he fed them, healed them, encouraged them. He did this because that is how God acts with mankind and Jesus reflected Gods qualities in his life.Just moments before he died on the stake, Jesus’ love moved him to entrust the care of his mother, Mary a widow, to the apostle John. So even when he himself was suffering greatly, he still put others before himself. (read the account in John 19:25-27)
This is also a part of the mosaic law: "honor your mother and your father" Its still Gods standard and was carried over to the christians and was said to be a display of Godly devotion.
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1Tim 5:11"Honor widows that are actually widows. But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let these learn first to practice GODLY DEVOTION in their own household and to keep paying a due compensation to their parents and grandparents, for this is acceptable in God’s sight."
_________________________________________________His Godly devotion was also manifest in his ministry. What motivated Jesus to spend his final years on earth intensely occupied with preaching and teaching? It was more then a sense of duty or obligation. There is no question that he had concern for people but his motives went deeper. He said at John 14:31 "I love the Father" We too must Love God the way Jesus did. This means we need to come to know God intimately the way Jesus knew God.Jesus was mild-tempered and lowly in heart, those who were weighed down with pressures and burdens were refreshed by his upbuilding teachings and kind personality. ( read Matthew 11:28-30) He was considerate and respectful to women which was very uncommon for the time. This won him the loyalty of many women, a number of whom contributed their time, effort, and material possessions to care for him as he performed his ministry. (have a look at Luke 8:1-3)He showed strong love for what was right and detested hypocrisy and wickedness. He showed he could stand up for what was right, he did not sheepishly fear men. Twice he took bold action to clear the temple of greedy merchants. (Matthew 21:12-13) He also publicly criticized the religious leaders for their hypocrisy and incorrect application of the mosaic law. Ultimately, he showed tremendous courageous when he submitted to a brutal death to accomplish his Father's will and give his subjects everlasting life.Jesus taught about the importance of forgiveness. He urged all to forgive others continuously. (Matthew 18:21,22) According to Jesus, by forgiving others, we clear the way for our own sins to be forgiven by God. (Mark 11:25) Jesus practiced this for when Peter denied Jesus 3 times, he did not hold it against him. When Jesus was arrested in the garden of gethsemene, Peter and the other apostles abandoned him and fled. But on the day of Jesus resurrection, he appeared to Peter, likely to comfort and reassure the apostle. (Luke 24:34; 1Corinthians 15:5) Later he also dignified Peter by letting him take the lead in giving a witness in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:14-40)
He did not hold a grudge against the apostles as a group for abandoning him. On the contrary, after his resurrection, he still called them "my brothers." (Matthew 28:10)There is a lot to learn about Jesus in the gospel accounts, more then i can type here....but most importantly, by knowing Jesus we can get to know God himself, for Jesus perfectly imitated God. If we are finding it hard to understand God, we should carefully study Jesus even more closely because he is a perfect representation of God. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Hi Bailey I've never heard of a sect of the prophets??? were they perhaps known by another name???The pharasees were elitists. The name Perushim meant "separated ones"
They created a strict observance of the 'oral' laws. They went beyond the mosaic law in that they fasted, not once, but twice each week. They prided themselves on being righteous and looked down on the common people whom they called the 'amhaarets'. They were so biased in their application of the Law that they made it burdensome for the people, insisting that it be observed according to their concepts and traditions.The Sadducees were a much more conservative party representing the interests of the temple and priesthood. Unlike the Pharisees, who claimed authority by virtue of learning and piety, the Sadducees based their priority on genealogy and position. They refused to accept any teaching not mentioned explicitly in the Pentateuch, even if it was stated elsewhere in the scriptures. hence why, unlike the pharasees, they believed in the resurrection of the body.The Essenes were a monastic sect. They delved into mystic ascetics, severely restricting fleshly pleasure and wealth. They also gave the Scriptures a mystical or allegorical meaning. They adopted Greek or Persian philosophies into their teachings. They also practiced celibacy...actually as a group they were wholly male because they felt that being with a woman would render them unclean. Later some of them broke into a further sect over that issue and they allowed marriage for the purpose of procreation. Interestingly, the dead sea scrolls appear to be a collection held by the Essenes.

I just have one thing to explain about the mosiac law. I understand that it seems like a contradiction to say that christians are no longer required to observe the mosaic law, yet those laws are still Gods standards.
Firstly, I have explained that the Mosaic law was instituted for a specific purpose. Once that purpose was realised, it was no longer a requirement that needed to be followed.Secondly, the Mosaic law was a single package. It had requirements such as observances, festivals, sacrificial offerings, tithing, fasting, obstaining from certain foods, ceremonial cleansing etc etc.
Yes, the laws showed Gods standards, but all those 'requirements' of the law code were in addition to his standards. (remember that before the law code man could be approved by God without following the mosaic law)
Thats why he could removed the Law Code with all of the 'requirements' mentioned above, but the standards remained.Gods standards have been known since the garden of Eden. Jesus taught those same standards in his sermon on the mount and so did the apostles. But the 'requirements' of the law code were something entirely different. They were for the purpose of acknowledging sin. When someone did wrong, they would have to apply the 'requirement' of the law code to acknowledge their error. This is what was removed from christians because now Christians had an approach to God thru, not sin offerings, but thru Jesus himself. Faith in Jesus became the basis for forgiveness of sins, not those mosaic law code requirements. this is going over the same information that has been posted right throughout this thread. Christian standards of morality can be derived from studying Gods standards. Gods standards are found in the bible in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. Its up to each individual to study them and apply them.i dont believe any regional laws state that a person must 'love their neighbor' or must 'look after orphans and widows' or must 'feed the hungry' or 'love your enemy' or 'not eat anything strangled' or 'not use anothers blood' or not 'bow down to idols'I doubt that in the USA its illegal to practice 'fornication, adultery or homosexuality'Does your country outlaw or demand any of the above?