Christian Laws

Laws or behavior ?Behavior then - EVERYTHING. God wants to conform the Christian to the image of Christ in order to build him or her up into the corporate Body of Christ for His corporate expression of God in man.I consider that God wants EVERYTHING about my behavior effected by the living presence and transformation of Jesus in me.Does that approach a reply to your question ?How I think, how I talk, how I treat others, how I think about them, how I think about myself, how I sleep, how I eat, how I handle my money, how I post on the Internet --- everything Christ wants to enfluence.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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The only simply answer for this question is this:

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Live as christ lived. Love as Christ loved. If we strive to do that, then God is pleased and we will get a favorable judgment.

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However, this requires accurate knowledge of what he taught, and what he believed and why he acted the way he did. The only place to get that knowledge is from the writings of the NT.

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So list how Jesus lived and show support.
List how Jesus loved and show support.Jesus lived as a Jew (religion). If you disagree, show that he didn't.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Does that approach a reply to your question ?

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No. You're just listing generalities.I want specifics.
How are you supposed to think?
How are you supposed to talk?
How are you supposed to treat others?
How are you supposed to think about others?
How are you supposed to think about yourself?
How are you supposed to sleep?
How are you supposed to eat?
How are you supposed to handle your money?
How are you supposed to post on the internet?Please show specific support, not just more analogies and metaphors. Love is not a specific answer.
Abiding is not a specific answer.What is the practical application that is the same for everyone.
Standard Operating Procedure. Same across the board. Nothing left to interpretation.Why is this so difficult?
Shouldn't a Christian be able to rattle them off?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Thank you for the exchange ...
And for the different thoughts.This is an interesting thread. Suggesting that Yeshua lived as a jew is perhaps a tad ambiguous, imho. Yuhdaism carried on at least four distinct traditions within the confines of Rome. Of the separate, yet interrelated, traditions readily available for our consideration, perhaps being the traditions of the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes and the Prophets, I would say the latter is the most appropriate perhaps.As evidence of such a claim, one may cite the clear distinction in HaMachiach's interpretation of HaToRaH. With this in mind, it may not be wise to compare Yeshua's religious tradition as strictly, or even 'basically', an orthodox or traditional form of Rabbinical Yuhdaism, etc. All of the traditions are in stark contrast to one another. By identifying what dignifies each tradition independently of one another, we may be able to better suggest 'how jesus lived'.What characteristics and traits identify the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes and the Prophets from one another?One Love

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I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have condemned the innocent; why trust what I say when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

It is clear that this teaching concerns not becomming lax as the return of Jesus seems to prolong.It is warning to live in the presence of and unto Jesus as if He could return at any moment.With Christ rewarding His servants there are both degrees of reward and degrees of punishment. This particular parable stresses degrees of punishment.The general principle is clear to me. I don't see great need to explore it deeply to see, for example:"Well, WHAT did the servant who was lightly punished NOT KNOW ?"Personally I find that question just a distraction from the general tenor of the parable's teaching. It is fine with me that Jesus summarizes that to whom much is given much will be expected.That is the way I try to live my Christian life. I don't have the wisdom to tell you what Jesus will say to all His servants. The principle of kingdom living set forth in the Gospel of Matthew is that the disciple should be strict with himself and accomodating with others.I wonder if some of the line of your questions is a desire to be strict with others, particularly all Christians.The spirit of kingdom living is for the Christian disciple to be merciful towards others but strict towards one's self.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Thanks for the exchange brutha jaywill.
Did you forgive me yet? I hope so ... What would your response be if I suggested that the spirit of Kingdom living for an Anointed disciple may be better described by one displaying mercy towards the Father and graciousness towards one's fellow, as well as themselves?It seems there are distinctions, perhaps quite available, to be made. Would you care to address an inquiry I put forth in Message 169, as well?

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What characteristics and traits identify the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes and the Prophets from one another?

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Thanks for the consideration ...One Love

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I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have condemned the innocent; why trust what I say when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

I am going to preceed this post with a quotation from Derek Prince. Then at the end I will re-quote it again in fuller context. In between are my brief replies to PD. That is not a wise reply. In any discipline worth undertaking there are basics. First requirement is for you to repent of the way you have been living, without Christ. Confess that you are a helpless sinner only good for damnation.Thank the Lord Jesus that He has died and rose for your salvation and receive Him as the Lord of your life.Have you done this? Above I gave you good practical starters. Begin by changing your mind about lving without Jesus. That is what repentence is, a change of mind.Think to reach out to Him in faith and receive Him as your Lord and Savior. Have you done this ?Then you should invite some of your friends and relatives and be baptized to declare to the world that henceforth you identify totally with Jesus Christ.You see Paul said that we should be renewed in our mind by presenting ourselves to God: By presenting yourself to Christ the process of the renewing of your mind will begin. The renewing of your mind will help you to prove what the will of God is.Please do not think you can be a disciple without presenting yourself (even your very body) to Jesus Christ. Do not ask how to be a disciple of Jesus in an idle way of curiosity, no matter how good you think your reasons for doing so are. As your mind is being renewed and you walk by the Spirit your conscience will become more and more sensative as to what words you utter are not acceptable to God.Consider the life of a human child. You do not demand that the child of two years old speak as the man of 25 years old. But I began to learn to speak through prayer, praise, reading of Scriptures and taking heed to what was truthful are opposed to political, what was accurate as opposed to what was exagerrated, what was clean as to opposed to what was unclean, what was sober as opposed to what was jesting, what was cleanly motivated as opposed to what was warped with self interest.This is a life long excercise. As I said before Paul practiced to forget the things behind and stretch forward to each new day's experience of Christ. A good guideline here for me has been Romans 12:18 - "If possible, as far as it depends on you, live in peace with all men."This is not to be taken in total isolation. But notice the flexibility. The author knows that his Christian audience is at different levels of growth and maturity. So he that each disciple, according to the grace he or she has learned, to live peacefully with all people.Another great guideline is that we treat others as we would be treated. This also requires grace. It requires another life - the life of Jesus which you will receive if you follow through on your first instruction to repent and receive the Lord Jesus.Is this exhaustive ? No indeed. I am not writing a book here, only a Internet post. We have New Believer's Lessons and Life Lessons and Truth Lessons of all kinds to assist new Christians in how to live by Christ.This is not exhaustive advice. And I will not be impressed if you come back with many "problems" you can deduce from my brief word. You begin to see them the way God sees them. You begin to think of them the way Jesus things of them.Again, a life long development this is. And I refered you before to Paul's depth of experience in this regard. He longed for the Philippians "in the inward parts of Christ Jesus".It must become, through growth, Christ's thinking which pervades your thinking. His life is available to us. That is WHY we are commanded to turn our souls over to Jesus. It is not only for the sake of forgiveness. It is that He can begin to fill your personality and permeate you and I with His flavor. As to your past you begin to count your history, your legacy as nothing other than Jesus Christ. Your entire past, both the good and the bad are under the blood of Jesus.Start there. And we can go on. If you cannot start there you will not be able to advance.First, as to your past, everything you are and have done you count as under the blood of Jesus Christ for total cleansing and forgiveness.Talk to Jesus about this. Come back and tell me how it went. Then we can proceed to other areas of thinking. It is good to heed Paul's word to not let the sun go down on your anger. I try to confess all the known faults of the day before retiring. I try to confess sins made known to me by the Holy Spirit as soon as they are made known to me.Your thought life at night can be permeated with the Spirit of God. Even in dreams you may have self control. For one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is self control (Gal.5:23)This has always fascinated me. That is because before I consecrated my life to Jesus I had the fear that to be subject to Jesus was to loose control. Then through careful study of the Bible and seeing the example of other brothers, I learned that the fruit of the Holy Spirit is "self control".Self control in the Holy Spirit is profitable for many many areas of human life. And without it we have many troubles. I have no arrived to perfection. I pursue to gain more of Christ each day. Your top enjoyment should be to live Christ. Anything replacing Christ in your life can be an idol including tasty food.God wants you to enjoy eating. God does not want you to exult food to the point that it replaces living out Christ who gives His life to you.Gluttony is a sin. And sometimes you may be so burdened to pray for the need of some person that you'd rather first spend the time to petitions God rather than eat.This is an area where I have a long way to go. I really like tasty food. I find it effective to confess to God that sometimes I love food more than God.God always hears an honest confession. He never rejects an honest prayer. Not only food, but ANYTHING which we love more than God, we should confess that IDOL to God.As we received Christ Jesus the Lord, so we are to continue to walk in Him. Confession of our helplessness releases His grace to empower us.How are you doing with #1 ? Receiving FIRST Jesus into your heart as your everlasting Lord and Savior ? You know we disciples can pray for one another.So become a disciple of Jesus and you can pray for me, and I for you. First, you see that it all belongs to God and that you need not be anxious for anything.I think I'll stop here.A child does not graduate from college two days after she is born. I think you have enough "specifics".I would emphasize that you must receive the living Jesus Who is indeed alive and available. You have to start there with Jesus as your Lord and Savior.I am going to conclude this post with a quotation from Derek Prince, a Christian teacher: Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Forgive you for what ? I didn't know there was an offense and am not aware of any.Let me rest a little from my reply to PD above. We'll talk soon.

I thought I may have perhaps inadvertently offended you within one of my sudden tangents. Sweet. lol - carry on ... Until then ... rest easy.One Love

Jaywill, I don't disagree with your basic concept that we are to behave ourselves. That's what Jesus taught and that's what Paul taught.

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I am going to conclude this post with a quotation from Derek Prince, a Christian teacher:

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"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Romans 10:4)

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If we believe, then for us Chrtist is the end of the law for righteousness. Not the end of the law as part of God's Word. Not the end of the law as a part of the history of the culture of Israel. But it is the end of the law as a means of achieving righteousness with God. this is true for everyone who believes: Jew or Gentile, Protestant or Catholic. It makes no difference. If we are reckoned righteous with God by the death of Jesus, it means the end of the law.

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"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are no under the law" (Galatians 5:18)

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We can choose, but we can't have it both ways. Jesus has made it possible for us to be guiltless and not condemned. He has abolished the law as a means of acheiving righteousness with God. As long as we are seeking to achieve righteousness by keeping a law, we will never be without condemnation. We can never be sure we habve done enough. We can never be sure that before each day ends we will not have broken some aspect of the law.

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I am not suggesting we should be lawless or disobedient. What I am saying is we will never achieve righteouness with God by keeping a set of rules. To try to do that is to insult God, because we are telling Him, in effect, "Jesus didn't need to die. I could have made it without Him." What a terrible thing to say: that the deaht of Jesus wasn't necessary. So, we are set free from condemnation on the basis of these two facts. First, our past sins can be totally forgiven - ALL of them. Second, we are not required to observe a law to achieve righteousness with God."

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[The Battle Lines are Drawn, Lucifer Exposed - the Devil's Plan to Destroy Your Life, Derek Prince , Whitaker House, pg. 48,49]

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As I said, there are no Christian Laws.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Hello purpledawn ... I think we may be coming to the same conclusion in this thread as Ghandi did in his life. lol - I think it was him that said 'everybody in the world knows what Jesus was teaching in those verses - except Christians'. A few other words of wisdom he supposedly said may tighten one's focus too ...

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Of all the things I have read what remained with me forever was that Jesus came almost to give a new law - not an eye for an eye but to receive two blows when only one was given, and to go two miles when they were asked to go one. I came to see that the Sermon on the Mount was the whole of Christianity for him who wanted to live a Christian life. ~ Ghandi

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Now, some may suggest, the sad fact is, Gandhi approached Yeshua and His Gospel 'buffet style' - taking what he liked and leaving what he didn't - and others are surprised that he made off with such a big helping considering his fasting habits and all.Perhaps they'll continue and say, 'He admired the Sermon on the Mount, but rejected Yeshua's teaching on salvation by his atoning sacrifice and the whole of salvation theology as explained in the epistles of ol' St. Paul - to Gehinom with the kaffir!!'.It may be more accurate to suggest Ghandi revered Yeshua and the Gospel of the Kingdom which He preached before the depiction of His murder occured, while accepting the later 'gospel's of christ' texts for what they seem to be ... the latter gospel's.Seems that, in the end of the matter, Mahatma Gandhi was more in the fashion of a lil' Anointed One, rather than being fashioned in the nature a Great Saint o' Pauline Theology I guess, huh?One Love

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I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have condemned the innocent; why trust what I say when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

Sounds like you wouldn't disagree with something I don't remember really making a point of. At least in the last two posts I emphasized FIRSTLY receiving the resurrected and living Jesus into one's heart. Lots of Christian Grace is available. No wonder Paul's words: But I did say that many posts ago. Now notice this:"For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17) I like the contrast in this passage. The Law of Moses was given. Grace and truth CAME through Jesus. In other words when Jesus comes, grace and truth come with Him.If you became one enjoying the grace of Christ you could help us preach the abiding in Christ rather than the extending of the 10 commandments to include umpteen "Christian" commandments.I want to graduate from just criticizing the disciples of Jesus to helping them to enjoy New Testament Grace.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

hehe you're a tough cookie to crack purpledawn! Here is a scripture that, in a nutshell, shows what we must strive for

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1timothy 3:16 "Indeed, the sacred secret of this GODLY DEVOTION is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.

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what Paul was saying here is that godly devotion is a sacred secret that has been openly shown to us in the life of Jesus. Because of the way Jesus devoted himself to the worship of God, he was Godly Devotion in the flesh.Godly Devotion is what our lives should reflect if we are to please God. Jesus was the perfect example of godly devotion, because he knew God better then anyone because he existed with him before any other creature was created...so he knew God intimately.Jesus behaved in the same way God behaves. He was able to say that "he who has seen me, has seen the father also" because he imitated his father perfectly. This makes his example a perfect one to 'try' to follow. (i say try because we cannot imitate him perfectly, if we could, we would be perfect)To understand the sort of man Jesus was we have to look to what is written about him. The Gospels show a man of warmth and deep feeling. Read the accounts in Mark 10 and you'll see how people of all ages and backgrounds found him approachable. On more than one occasion, he took children into his arms. People were comfortable around him because of his sincere, genuine interest in them. Jesus often went out of his way to help people, he fed them, healed them, encouraged them. He did this because that is how God acts with mankind and Jesus reflected Gods qualities in his life.Just moments before he died on the stake, Jesus’ love moved him to entrust the care of his mother, Mary a widow, to the apostle John. So even when he himself was suffering greatly, he still put others before himself. (read the account in John 19:25-27)
This is also a part of the mosaic law: "honor your mother and your father" Its still Gods standard and was carried over to the christians and was said to be a display of Godly devotion.
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1Tim 5:11"Honor widows that are actually widows. But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let these learn first to practice GODLY DEVOTION in their own household and to keep paying a due compensation to their parents and grandparents, for this is acceptable in God’s sight."
_________________________________________________His Godly devotion was also manifest in his ministry. What motivated Jesus to spend his final years on earth intensely occupied with preaching and teaching? It was more then a sense of duty or obligation. There is no question that he had concern for people but his motives went deeper. He said at John 14:31 "I love the Father" We too must Love God the way Jesus did. This means we need to come to know God intimately the way Jesus knew God.Jesus was mild-tempered and lowly in heart, those who were weighed down with pressures and burdens were refreshed by his upbuilding teachings and kind personality. ( read Matthew 11:28-30) He was considerate and respectful to women which was very uncommon for the time. This won him the loyalty of many women, a number of whom contributed their time, effort, and material possessions to care for him as he performed his ministry. (have a look at Luke 8:1-3)He showed strong love for what was right and detested hypocrisy and wickedness. He showed he could stand up for what was right, he did not sheepishly fear men. Twice he took bold action to clear the temple of greedy merchants. (Matthew 21:12-13) He also publicly criticized the religious leaders for their hypocrisy and incorrect application of the mosaic law. Ultimately, he showed tremendous courageous when he submitted to a brutal death to accomplish his Father's will and give his subjects everlasting life.Jesus taught about the importance of forgiveness. He urged all to forgive others continuously. (Matthew 18:21,22) According to Jesus, by forgiving others, we clear the way for our own sins to be forgiven by God. (Mark 11:25) Jesus practiced this for when Peter denied Jesus 3 times, he did not hold it against him. When Jesus was arrested in the garden of gethsemene, Peter and the other apostles abandoned him and fled. But on the day of Jesus resurrection, he appeared to Peter, likely to comfort and reassure the apostle. (Luke 24:34; 1Corinthians 15:5) Later he also dignified Peter by letting him take the lead in giving a witness in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:14-40)
He did not hold a grudge against the apostles as a group for abandoning him. On the contrary, after his resurrection, he still called them "my brothers." (Matthew 28:10)There is a lot to learn about Jesus in the gospel accounts, more then i can type here....but most importantly, by knowing Jesus we can get to know God himself, for Jesus perfectly imitated God. If we are finding it hard to understand God, we should carefully study Jesus even more closely because he is a perfect representation of God. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Hi Bailey I've never heard of a sect of the prophets??? were they perhaps known by another name???The pharasees were elitists. The name Perushim meant "separated ones"
They created a strict observance of the 'oral' laws. They went beyond the mosaic law in that they fasted, not once, but twice each week. They prided themselves on being righteous and looked down on the common people whom they called the 'amhaarets'. They were so biased in their application of the Law that they made it burdensome for the people, insisting that it be observed according to their concepts and traditions.The Sadducees were a much more conservative party representing the interests of the temple and priesthood. Unlike the Pharisees, who claimed authority by virtue of learning and piety, the Sadducees based their priority on genealogy and position. They refused to accept any teaching not mentioned explicitly in the Pentateuch, even if it was stated elsewhere in the scriptures. hence why, unlike the pharasees, they believed in the resurrection of the body.The Essenes were a monastic sect. They delved into mystic ascetics, severely restricting fleshly pleasure and wealth. They also gave the Scriptures a mystical or allegorical meaning. They adopted Greek or Persian philosophies into their teachings. They also practiced celibacy...actually as a group they were wholly male because they felt that being with a woman would render them unclean. Later some of them broke into a further sect over that issue and they allowed marriage for the purpose of procreation. Interestingly, the dead sea scrolls appear to be a collection held by the Essenes.

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hehe you're a tough cookie to crack purpledawn!

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That's because you're trying to unlock a door that is already open.

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Here is a scripture that, in a nutshell, shows what we must strive for

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I didn't ask for Christianity on one foot.
I didn't ask for you to make a long story short.
I didn't ask for the Cliff Notes.My nutshell from Message 114. You disagree with that summary. You continually differentiate between man's laws and God's laws (Message 84), but cannot list God's laws.In Message 101, you say that Jesus lived and taught God's standards. But then in Message 108 you claim that Christians are not required to follow the Mosaic Law because they know what Jesus and the apostles taught. Now I've already agreed several times that Christians are not bound by Mosaic or Jewish Law. Of course I don't think you like my reasoning. The Christians were Greeks and never were under Jewish Law. They were bound by the laws of the land though.But, Jesus and his followers were Jewish. The lessons that Jesus taught were from the Jewish religion and law. Yes, I have shown you that they are. Message 89I also agree that all that is legal today, is not necessarily ethical.You disagree with my summary (Message 344 of the Prisoner of Sin Thread) and you contend that God's Laws are different than man's laws; and you contend that the Mosaic Laws are God's standards and that God's standards never change, and that Christians still must follow God's standards.Continually saying one is free from the law but one's behavior must be in line with the law is contradictory. Both you and Jaywill have presented this idea. Jaywill presents his in a quote at the end of Message 172. Now both of you are hung up on the "being deemed righteous issue". Not once have I asked for the list of laws that will make one righteous before God. You are the one who says we must follow God's laws. Even Jaywill's quote says we still aren't allowed to be lawless and disobedient.So the question is and has been, what are the standards that God holds us accountable for? I'll make this easier for you. Only list those standards that aren't already covered by regional laws (yours, since you don't necessarily know mine).Again, I don't want a summary, in a nutshell, Cliff Notes, long story short, etc.
I don't want catch phrases or metaphors.Actually list what standards God expects Christians to follow and explain why they are God's standards and not man's regional laws.Edited by purpledawn, : Msg #

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz