Christian Laws

quote: from John 10:10

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Deeds of the flesh or fruit of the Spirit
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Gal 5:18-23

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But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

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I would say that this quote by John 10:10 shows something similar to what you are saying about following the spirit of the law.Christians have 'graduated' from following the law to following the Spirit. We don't just have the law, we have the Lawgiver Himself leading. Such a blessed Leader (the Comforter - Paraclete in Greek) will never lead us to do something contrary to the spirit of the law, that is, contrary to the intention of the Lawgiver.It is the desires of the flesh that lead us to do that - and that continually. The desires of the flesh issue in the deeds of the flesh.The first two verses in the section above are Gal. 5:16,17 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."The issue, the result, of being led by the Spirit is the fulfilling of the requirement of the law (see below). The requirement of the Law fulfilled in us as we walk by the Spirit.Rom 8:2-4 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."So, if the issue of being led by the Spirit of God is the fulfillment of the requirement of the Law, it is not exactly right to say that Christians have no laws.I still think the question is how can a fallen man live in a way that is pleasing to a holy, righteous, loving God. I think these verses give a clue as to the way.

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I still think the question is how can a fallen man live in a way that is pleasing to a holy, righteous, loving God. I think these verses give a clue as to the way.

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And still you list nothing.What makes Paul an authority?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

The resurrected Jesus revealed himself to Paul and commissioned him to be an attendant and a witness of the things he had seen and would yet see. As an evidence of the authority given to Paul, he was given visions and powerful words. The first vision given to Paul, was seeing the disciple Ananias come in and restore his sight. When the vision became reality, Paul was baptized & received holy spirit.His authority came directly from Jesus and God.

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The resurrected Jesus revealed himself to Paul and commissioned him to be an attendant and a witness of the things he had seen and would yet see. As an evidence of the authority given to Paul, he was given visions and powerful words. The first vision given to Paul, was seeing the disciple Ananias come in and restore his sight. When the vision became reality, Paul was baptized & received holy spirit.

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His authority came directly from Jesus and God.

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And again, no verses to support your position. Have you learned nothing in all these discussions? Supporting evidence, common courtesy, anything?

.i was assuming you would know the account i was refering to

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Acts 9:1-20
9 But Saul, still breathing threat and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, in order that he might bring bound to Jerusalem any whom he found who belonged to The Way, both men and women.

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3Now as he was traveling he approached Damascus, when suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him, 4and he fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him: Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? 5He said: Who are you, Lord? He said: I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6Nevertheless, rise and enter into the city, and what you must do will be told you. 7Now the men that were journeying with him were standing speechless, hearing, indeed, the sound of a voice, but not beholding any man. 8But Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were opened he was seeing nothing. So they led him by the hand and conducted him into Damascus. 9And for three days he did not see anything, and he neither ate nor drank.

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10There was in Damascus a certain disciple named Anani′as, and the Lord said to him in a vision: Anani′as! He said: Here I am, Lord. 11The Lord said to him: Rise, go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man named Saul, from Tarsus. For, look! he is praying, 12and in a vision he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands upon him that he might recover sight. 13But Anani′as answered: Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how many injurious things he did to your holy ones in Jerusalem. 14And here he has authority from the chief priests to put in bonds all those calling upon your name. 15But the Lord said to him: Be on your way, because this man is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel. 16For I shall show him plainly how many things he must suffer for my name.

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17So Anani′as went off and entered into the house, and he laid his hands upon him and said: Saul, brother, the Lord, the Jesus that appeared to you on the road over which you were coming, has sent me forth, in order that you may recover sight and be filled with holy spirit. 18And immediately there fell from his eyes what looked like scales, and he recovered sight; and he rose and was baptized, 19and he took food and gained strength.

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He got to be for some days with the disciples in Damascus, 20and immediately in the synagogues he began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God.

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Rich's post was very good. This point he makes has been basically made before in this thread.Now as the the question of Paul's authority. What makes Paul an authority is the complaint raised by the church raised up from his ministry, the church in Corinth. In the letter of Second Corinthians God has preserved for us Paul's being forced to address this challenge.The Corinthians, ever suspicious that this little man was putting himself out to be more than he ought, forced Paul to speak as a fool and expound on his apostolic calling.I would only say here that Peter, James, and John recognized the grace given to this newcomer and extended the right hand of fellowship to him as a coworker in the apostolic work (Gal. 2:7-10). And this seems to have occured after more than a decade of Paul's preparation by God. We also see that before this the Holy Spirit, had explicitly separated Paul and Barnabas out for "the work" - apostolic work of raising up local churches. This was probably the beginning of Paul's apostolic ministry. He was previously a faithful functioning teacher and gospel preacher. However, in His early conversion, Christ had made it known to Paul that he was to be a chosen vessel for the apostolic work. Christ telling a reluctant Ananias to go baptize this former persecutor:"But the Lord said to him, Go, for this man is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before both the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel: For I will show him how many things he must suffer on behalf of My name." (Acts 9:15,16)We also see the Apostle Peter recommend Paul's wisdom and refer to his letters as Scripture. So his letters were circulating around the churches and were held in the highest regard by the original apostles: Luke speaks of "extraordinary miracles" done by Paul in the same manner in which they issued from Peter:"And God did works of power of no ordinary kind through the hands of Paul ..." (Acts 19:11)" .... they (Paul and Barnabas) spent a considerable amount of time speaking with boldness in the Lord, who testified to the word of His grace by granting signs and wonders to be done through their hands." (Acts 14:3)Paul with Barnabas was highly recommended by the council of apostles and elders in Jerusalem and sent with letters to strengthen the Gentiles in the local churches. In such a letter they wrote: Paul's apostleship is clear. And it is no accident that of the 27 New Testament books about 13 were authored by this servant of Christ.Like the Corinthians, some still may quarrel over this point, questioning Paul's apostolic ministry. Such complaints sometimes come from people who might question any apostle of Christ's right to lay before us authoritatively the teaching of Jesus.But Jesus said that He would send some apostles and that to receive them was to receive Him which was in turn to receive the One Who sent Jesus, the Father: Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Paul says he has authority and a later unknown writer says he has authority.Paul doesn't really have any more authority to make legal laws or speak for God than any other person today.

Obviously you reject Christ's pronouncement upon the Apostle Paul that he was a chosen vessel.But it is no surprise because perhaps you do not recognize Christ has having any authority either.This is not a matter of having to verify the spiritual authority of an apostle. This is the matter of someone not wanting to receive that service. I regard Paul's authority as his slave service to the church. Paul is my slave. The authority bestowed upon the apostles is their authority to be poured out as a drink offering and slave away for the church.If he is not an apostle of Christ to you, purpledawn, he certainly is an apostle to me. If you do not receive his pouring out of his labors for the Christians as a slave, I receive it.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Obviously you reject Christ's pronouncement upon the Apostle Paul that he was a chosen vessel.

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Passing on the good news is very different from making legal laws.

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This is not a matter of having to verify the spiritual authority of an apostle. This is the matter of someone not wanting to receive that service.

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Nope this is about Christian laws, stick with the topic. Paul did not have the authority to add or change legal laws. Show me otherwise.

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If he is not an apostle of Christ to you, purpledawn, he certainly is an apostle to me. If you do not receive his pouring out of his labors for the Christians as a slave, I receive it.

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I never said he wasn't an apostle. I would think by now you would know better than to try and shame me. I question dogma, not God. It isn't wrong to question dogma.Either show me that Paul had the authority to add or change legal laws or keep silent.Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

The original question that I addressed was:"What makes Paul an authority?"Those are your words to Rich. I discussed with you the apostolic authority of Paul. So are you shifting the goal post around or what?quote: Paul had the authority to teach whatever he taught in the New Testament based on his apostleship. All his letters and whatever is contained therein flow from his authority as an apostle of Christ.I am not proving Paul changed laws or Paul didn't change laws. I am addressing your question "What made Paul an authority?" ... your words, not mine.Perhaps you needed to phrase it more particularly. But "What makes Paul an authority?" has been address. That's tough talk. Should I be kind of quivering in my shoes or what?The question that I read was "What makes Paul an authority?"Okay, I'll humor you. One thing Paul discussed which I don't think Christ is recorded to have discussed is circumcisism. Paul taught that it was not a requirement of eternal redemption. I don't think I can recall Jesus specifically teaching that. He could have and it was not recorded.But nonetheless, Paul did change to the legal emphasis on circumcisism. His authority to do so stems from him being Christ's apostle.And if you don't question God - The Word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh. So God in Christ pronounced that Paul was a chosen vessel, therefore being especially chosen as he was, God invested his apostle with the necessary authority.And if you have a problem with what I just said, then I repeat - You probably do not consider that Christ has authority either. I'd be happy to hear that you do believe in the incarnation of the Logos Who was God as the man Jesus of Nazareth. Come right out and declare your belief that Jesus Christ is God incarnate. Or come right out and deny it.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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The original question that I addressed was:

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"What makes Paul an authority?"

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Those are your words to Rich. I discussed with you the apostolic authority of Paul. So are you shifting the goal post around or what?

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To respond to that question you would need to know what I was referring to. Authority to what or for what? Read Message 300. I'm still talking about Christian laws or lack there of.

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But nonetheless, Paul did change to the legal emphasis on circumcisism. His authority to do so stems from him being Christ's apostle.

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Supposedly one of the original apostles said the Gentiles didn't need to be circumcised to follow the Way. By the same unknown author of Acts, chapter 15 I believe. Neither they nor Paul absolved natural Jews of circumcision as far as I know.As I understand it, there were two types of converts to Judaism. Paul didn't change a law.

Nonsense.One is not justified unto eternal life through works of the law.It should be obvious that if God did not care how the justified Christian lived ever after being justified by faith, there would not be so many exhortations how to live (by the grace of Christ), in the New Testament.Actually, Paul writes "As you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him." The disciples began by faith and were eternally redeemed and eternally justified. For their daily live's tranasformation they should continue in faith. That is trusting that the indwelling Christ can permeate their new life causing them to walk righteously.Those exhortations to live righteously after being redeemed would included both exhortations of Jesus and of the letter writing apostles. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

As expected, total evasion of the issue of whether you regard Christ as having authority either, let alone His apostles, including Paul.You wrote above that your point is that Paul did not change laws.Okay. I have little problem with that. Paul said that Christ was the END of the law. There is no need to tamper with it. There is the need to be joined to Christ.That is Paul's central message. Downplaying the need for circumcism, whether changing the law or playing down the law, was done by Paul.Some may regard that as changing. Some may not. The point I make is that Christ is Paul's total focus, for Christ is the end of the law.It is like someone giving a person 100 million dollars and that person is still anxious that he can save on his own a few quarters of change.In terms of eternal redemption, Christ has been given by God to the believers. He is MORE than enough. He is the end of the law unto rightouesness to everyone who believes. God has exhausted righteousness on behalf of the sinner in Christ, in terms of his being justified before God forever.After being justified there is the need for transformation into Christ's image. That is because justification is not an end in itself. Conformity to the image of Christ is the intended issue that must follow after justification.Essentially, the Christians eternal redemption is settled forever. His reward is related to how much He allowed the sanctification process to conform him to the image of Christ.Eternal redemption is a Gift.
In addition to the Gift there is the reward of cooperating with the indwelling Spirit of Christ to conform one to the image of Christ.One is a matter of a righteous position. The other is a matter of a righteous disposition.One is a matter of a righteous standing. The other is a matter of a righteous walking.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You seemed not to have read the book of Galatians."Behold, I Paul say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circimcised that he is a deptor to do the whole law. You have been brought to nought, [separated] from Christ, you who are being justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

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For we by the Spirit out of faith eagerly await the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything nor uncircumcision, but faith [avails], operating through love." (Galatians 5:2-6) "For neither is circumcisism anything nor uncircumcisism, but a new creation is what matters. And as many as walk by this rule, peace be upon them and mercy, even upon the Israel of God." (Gal. 6:15,16)This Paul downplaying circumcism to the Galatian disciples. Those are of faith in Christ are Abraham's seed. Those who walk in Christ are the "Israel of God"There is no need to be circumcised to be the bonafide descendent of Abraham now. For Paul writes "Know then that they who are of faith, these are the sons of Abraham" (Gal. 2:7)The author of Acts is Luke.The need to be circumcised to be saved was contrary to justification by faith which Christ taught, and Peter the first gospel preacher also taught in obediance to Christ, standing with the other 11 apostles.In Galatians, Paul said the Jews seeking to be justified by circumcism would not be profited by Christ and had fallen from grace.Read Galatians. And it might help not to decide that it too is by an "unknown author". I understand it is popular to do so among skeptics of the New Testament.

Paul's clarity in writing about the need to forsake the Jewish rituals did intensify after his experiene with trying to placate the Jewish Christians in the Jerusalem.James boasted that the believers were all zealous to keep the law of Moses. James advized Paul to do something to nullify their suspicion that Paul was teaching against the customs of Moses.Paul went along with James. James still had one foot in the Old Covenant and one foot in the New Covenant. Paul took James's advice. But God seems not to have honored this political move. The entire affair blew up in Paul's face. They dragged him out of the temple, locked the door, and would have stoned him. Paul appeased no one by pretending to still be a teacher of the Mosaic law keeping.The early church in Jerusalem had not grasped yet how radical a turn God had made in the new covenant. This shows the transition of the people of God from the old way into the new way.After this experience Paul was stronger and wrote his strongest letters saying that the old covenant was over. At this point Paul may have realized that of all the apostles he seemed to be the clearest what God had done in establishing a new covenenat.I could be wrong about that. However, it seems clear that after his Jerusalem disaster he became very much more resolute never to try to water down the gospel of Justification in Christ by faith.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.