Prophecy in the Bible - Theology of Double Fulfillment

PaulK and Jazzns:1. I have shown that John's NT Revelation has unsealed the details of the end time events to which Daniel alluded.2. I have shown that observable events of our time verify that the end time fulfillment is on track to fulfillment and indeed are beginning to pass, i.e. the phenomenal restoration of Israel, being scattered globally for nearly 2 milleniums and the emergence of one world government/global empire encompassing all tribes, tongues and nations. President Obama is a master globalist moreso than he is a US nationalist. Even the Bush senior and junior presidents were advocates of a new world order. Obama is promoting this with all of his might, demeaning the US, undermining the war on terror and diminishing our national soverignty.3. Christians and Christianity globally is being attacked and persecuted as per Daniel for the latter days when fulfillment ensues. More have been killed the last hundred years than all of the past centuries combined. According to Jesus, John and the other epistles, this is just the beginning. Relatively few Christians will escape tribulation/persecution before the 2nd advent of Jesus. This is known as the great tribulation. Alas, most evangelicals falsely assume that they will escape this by being rapture out before it begins while, in fact, it began with the Bolshevik Revolution nearly a hundred years ago and via rise of Islam, China etc.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Jazzns, you are more unresponsive one. You ignore 3/4 of the on topic points which I cite, all of which pertain to the prophecies of Daniel.I did not ignore the Macabeans. They are relatively unimportant because they fail to meet the test for end time fulfillment which according to both Daniel and corroborating prophets will be at a time when messianic data begins to emerge.Either the prophecies will fail or there's some unexplicable reason the events cited which pre-empt end time fulfillment, such as a global new world order which President Obama the UN openly advocates, world monetary systems and a restored Israel etc. You're copping out, Jazzns. What I cited are not fickle minded conspiracies. They are observable and on track legitimate evidences. Obviously you can't refute so you restort to illigitimizing the factual on topic data which I have cited.Read me carefully, Jazzns.Example 1: True or false? Daniel cites fulfillment relative to confrontation to the prince of princes and to the saints of God ruling after the end comes to Gentile empires.Example 2: True or false? Both the Daniel 7 ten horned beast prophecy and the Revelation 13 ten horned beast prophesy depict a global empire and depict the empire making war with the saints of God.You can't just waive off these evidences, charging off topic. You need to either address them head on or leave off of the false accusations.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Until modern times there were no stars in the sky capable of falling. Lo and behold now this is one of corroborating factors relative to futuristic fufillment of Daniel which we observe today. Our modern sky is alive with lights of space craft, satelites and high flying jet planes capable of being cast to the earth. If one in Daniel's time visualized these lighted craft falling at night it would appear that stars were falling to earth. So yes, I take this literally.By the same token, the prophet John prophesied that a all nations, tribes and tongues would see an event happening at one location on earth. Up until modern TV etc anyone reading this would think that the prophecy would fail or that it was a metaphor or something.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

My Hebrew to English Interlinear says of the little horn, "And it became great, even to the stars of the heavens. And it made fall some of the host and of the stars to the ground and trampled them."The words, satelites, space craft and jet planes (stars) and their passengers (host) could easily be substituted relative to modern air and space technology. There are already terrorist ambitions to develop tech to foul up the computers, etc of jets etc to cause them to "fall to the ground" as per the prophecy of Daniel. LOL. So says the looser of that debate, relative to Revelation 12:

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Jazzns, I have shown that there is no valid contemporary fulfillment of Daniel's cohesive at large prophecy which culminates with the end time messianic world empire which ends Gentile empires forever. This is key in Neb's ten toed image dream all the way down to the ten horned beast prophecy.I have shown that nothing contemporaneous to the writing of the prophecy meets the qualifications for fulfillment of Daniel's at large cohesive fulfillment.Further, I have substantiated that end time fulfillment is on track to fruition relative to observed modern day observable evidences.Conclusion: There is no double fulfillment which means there is also no double fulfillment. As per Daniel's own words the fulfillment was to be delayed until the end times, i.e. the end of Gentile world empires as per Daniel, all of the OT corroborating prophets and as per Jesus in the Olivet Discourse and John in Revelation.You cannot; I repeat, cannot isolate Daniel from the corroborating prophets and do Biblical eschatological academics justice. Your OP statement below allows for this.Your OP falsly assumes that end time fulfillment necessarily requires double fulfillment. I have soundly substantiated that assumption to be a false and erroneous pre-requisite to futurist fulfillment.It appears that your response to my facts are to attempt to illigitamatize my input as off topic or as failure to address your question. I see that as a cop-out on your part rather than a digression from ligitimate debate on my part.This all is pertinent on topic information necessary to adequately address your question/challenge to advocates of either double fulfillment or of the majority POV in eschatological academia circles. (embolding mine for emphasis)EvC Forum: Prophecy in the Bible - Theology of Double Fulfillment

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Mmm, no. In fact Jewish law required that prophets who falsely prophesy should be put to death. This was to irradicate dissemination of deceit. The text in no way allows for error. Thus the evidence that the fulfillment is on tract for futurist fulfillment, as I have detailed. Need I repeat myself for the umpteenth time? Who do you think Daniel's prince of princes and Daniel's rulling saints alude to relative to an alleged contemporaneous fulfillment? I anxiously anticipate an answer to the question. But John, who could read Daniel, significantly unsealed Daniel's prophecies, elaborating an abundance of additional data relative to prophecies such as the 10 toe/10 horn chapters which I have cited. You have failed to address any of this pertinent data which I have cited, waiving it all off as irrevalent to the topic.Certainly, no reading of Daniel would enable John to precisely predict, pertaining to approaching apocalypse perceptively, pertinent to expounding on Daniel. There's just too many significant end time predictions relative to our time which I have cited to waive off. How can you allege that, Jazzins? I'm interpreting little. I have furnished a significant amount of data relative to what Daniel, Jesus and John prophesied, verified by what we observe in our day pertaining to fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies. On the other hand you and Paul focus in on a few cogs in the at large wheel of complete fulfillment, waiving off significant troublesome non-contemporaneous data as failure or irrevalent. I've repeatedly showed how John's pertinent data updating/unsealing the 10 toes/horns chapters have revealed additional data. Furthermore John has expounded, detailing numerous events so as to take off where Daniel ended as to what to expect all of the way to the end of the present earth as it is. The Bible begins with the Genesis record of creation and ends with the end of the world as it is and creation of new heavens, a new earth and a new Jerusalem.Daniel's prophecies were an early revealing of coming world events all of the way up until the end times. The revelation of John begins with the church era all of the way to the end, precisely detailing on end time data which was sealed from Daniel.Amos 3:7 states that Jehovah will do nothing unless he first reveal it to his servants, the prophets, essentially establishing that at least the majority of Biblical prophecy is intended to be futurist. Edited by Buzsaw, : improve wording

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

The prophecy does not say that the written scripture of Daniel would not be circulated and published etc after Daniel's time. The text clearly implies that there would be no further revelation until the end time revelation would be completed, i.e. the sealing. As I said, John the revelator most certainly had access to all of the OT scriptures. The implication is also that complete understanding of the prophecies would not be realized until the time frame of the fulfillment. This is true with all prophecy.I don't think there's evidence that any editing significantly changed the prophecy content of Daniel.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

There you go again, Paul, quote mining little single phrases out of the prophecy at large. You keep on waiving off all of the rest of Daniel's referrals to what the last days/times are relative to messianic fulfillment.I asked Jazzns who the "prince of princes" and the "ruling saints" who end up with the world class kingdom (after suffering severe persecution/tribulation) the end of all Gentile world class empires, i.e. the end times are. I'm still waiting for Jazzns answer to that. Perhaps you want to take a crack at it.Furthermore, all of the other major prophets refer to the end time events relative to Israel and messianic rule. As well, Jesus in two of the Olivet Discourse accounts prophesied relative to the end times/end of the age including Gentile occupation of Israel, etc.You two are acting like novices who are totally unaware of these Biblical facts. You both need to do some reading up on the prophets; all of them, rather than this quote mining little tid-bits from a couple of chapters in Daniel, insisting that this is substantiating your flimsy argument.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

First, the "shut up" prophecy of Daniel is "sealed" for the end times.Last night I woke up in the wee hours and got thinking about the sealed book that is aluded to in Daniel. Six or so centuries (depending on how you date Daniel), toward the end of the 1st century AD, lo and behold the NT prophet John is given revelation from the messianic prince of princes, Jesus Christ. (as per Revelation 1:1)Lo and behold, in chapter five God is seen sitting on his majestic throne with a sealed book in his right hand, sealed with seven seals. With a loud voice an angel asks who is worty to open the seals. The chapter goes on to explain that it is no other than Jesus Christ, slain lamb, slain for the sins of the people who opens the seals, one by one for John to write in his prophecy of end time events.Whoever bothers to read the events of these seals will read in the sixth seal of the darkening of the sun and moon and the falling stars and the severe persecution of the saints of God, all of which the prophet Daniel and all corroborating prophets aluded to in his prophecy relative to the end times.The Book of Revelation is a prophecy at large of the Christian era, the Letters To The Seven Churches being a dispensational prophecy of the church all of the way up to the present luke warm (Laodicean) era. Then in Rev 5 comes the seals depicting the Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse, the persecution/tribulation of the saints of God (as per Daniel) and the celestial events alluded to by Daniel and other OT prophets.The last (7th) seal becomes the 7 trumpets, the 7th trumpet being the 7 bowls of God's wrath, so essentially the seals cover the entire Revelation of Jesus Christ/messianic prince of princes, as revealed to John the prophet.What lends credence to the unsealing in the NT revelation is things like the on track restoration of Israel as a nation and the 10 horned beast empire which Daniel alluded to. John's updated (unsealed) version depicts things like global government/new world order, advocated by UN entities, including our present administration, cashless monetary systems and speaking images accessable to all nations, tribes and toungs, i.e. TV tech etc. None of this new data could have been gleaned from Daniel's prophecy.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Jazzns, did you even read or think about my pertinent points previously posted? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Edited by Buzsaw, : fix spelling

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Hi Peg. A penny for your thoughts pertaining my POV prophecy points pertaining to Jazzins OP.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Jazzins, I have repeatedly tried to advise you that the deep things of scripture are not simple. One must do one's homework on the prophecies, corroborating the prophets and doing one's homework in order to come to accurate conclusions.Among the gifts of the Holy Spirit are knowledge, teaching, prophecy, etc. There are novice peanut gallery Biblical prophecy skeptics and there are ardent Biblical scholars who do comprehensive research and study, corroborating the harmony of scripture, both OT and NT before arriving at conclusions.This is suppose to be one of the primary functions of how the NT church is structured, with Christians assembling to teach and edify etc. Alas, the majority of churches totally ignore approximately 1/3 of the Bible, which is prophecy. Thus the prevailing ignorance.As to the simple gospel of salvation, etc, yes, scripture is relatively simple, but when one delves into the prophecies, it appears that God purposely inspired them to be written with a measure of mystery.II Timothy 2:16: KJV

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

I appreciate your reply, Peg, as well as the good work you do on behalf of creationism here at EvC. It is good to see that we are on the same page, for the most part on this topic.Relative to Israel, the calling out from the nations most likely alludes to the fact the the messianic kingdom will be inclusive of some role by resurrected Christians since we are co-heirs with him who will rule and reign with him.I suggest you do a thoughtful reading of Ezekiel 36 to 39, corroborated by most of the other major prophets of the OT which detail a futuristic restoration of Israel as a nation and messiah returning to the Mt of Olives etc. As well, imo, the phenominal regathering of a nation of people who were dispersed world wide for 19 centuries is too remarkable to have happened outside of divine intervention.Zecharia 8:9 reads:
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass.Note that he addresses the daughter of Jerusalem calling messiah/king their king. The kingdom will be global in scope, however with all nations subject to messiah's Zionistic global empire centered at Jerusalem.Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem would be occupied by gentiles until the times of the gentiles would end, in his Mat 24 and Luke 21 prophecy of his 2nd advent, implying that Jesusalem would in the end times be occupied by Jews (non-gentiles.This is important relative to Daniel because both Jesus and Daniel corroborate with the other prophets that the end times/end of days would be futuristic both to Daniel and to Jesus/messiah.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Jehovah, god and father of Jesus will be the ruler/magesty of Heaven, likely with Jesus on his right hand, somewhat like Joseph was Pharoah's right hand man.On the cross was the sign, "King Of The Jews." As well, when Jesus was asked of Pilot, who wrote the sign if he was the king of the Jews, Jesus appeared to answer in the affirmitive. Remember, it was into Jerusalem where he rode on the foal of an ass as per both the NT and the OT prophecy.According to Daniel and other prophets, the saints/Christians will come and rule with him after the end of Gentile empires. This will be after the resurrection and gathering up to Heaven. Yes, that's correct. Revelation 1:7 The OT prophet, Zechariah fortold this centuries before the 1st advent of Jesus:Zechariah 12:10 So, yes indeed, at the 2nd advent of Jesus/messiah, the whole house of Israel will respond favorably, realizing their great mistake over the centuries of the Christian era. For sure the millennial messianic kingdom will not be as it was BC. I don't remember the references but the implication is that any of the temple activity will be more of a memorial etc rather than sin offering, Jesus having satisfied that once and for all.Christians/i.e the church universal will have a role in the kingdom headquartered at Jerusalem. The specifics of that role is not given, nor need we know it until it happens. We can rest assured that it will be blissful. There's a difference between the children/sons of God, i.e. saved Gentiles and Jews who have received Christ and the children of Israel, i.e. the nation of Israel (not inclusive in the dispensation/era/age of the church) At the resurrection and gathering up of the church/saints/Christians the church era ends and messianic era begins after wrath bowls and Armageddon.Buzsaw writes:
The kingdom will be global in scope, however with all nations subject to messiah's Zionistic global empire centered at Jerusalem. The earthly messianic kingdom will last a mere millenium, which is a very short time relative to eternity. Revelation 20, 21 says that after it ends, new heavens, new earth and new Jerusalem will follow. This language alludes to the fact that we gentile Christians via the new birth (spiritual) become grafted into Abraham's promise of God, known as the Abrahamic Covenant That refers to the saints/church. The restored nation of Israel (largely Jews) are literal Jews by birth & heritage. Most assuredly! Jesus prophesed that the times of the Gentiles would be fulfilled relative to the re-occupation of Israel into the city, Jerusalem. In the 1967 Six Day War, Israel, as a nation marched into the old walled city of Jerusalem all of the way to the Temple Mount for the first time after 19 centuries of dispersion. This is the beginning of the end of Gentile empires. Thus so much upheavel and turmoil has happend in the Middle East.Two days before that 6 day war began, an athiest friend came into my antique shop and asked who was going to win the war, the 2 million or so Jews or the 20 million or so Arabs surrounding the tiny nation. Headlines were that Nasser, prime minister of Egypt vowed Israel would be driven into the sea. Israel was armed by US and all of the enemy was armed mostly by Russia. His name was Wells. I said something like, "Wells, it may take a few months or so but Israel will most definitely win this war, based on Bible prophecy." To the world's amazement Israel pre-empted attack and obliterated the air forces and militia of several nations.Conclusion 1: The end time of Daniel and of Jesus begins when gentile empire era ends. Things are popping world wide. The US will be reduced substantially as a world power and Islamic block of nations allied with Russia and part of Europe will become pre-emminent on the global scene, to the extent that they will invade Jerusalem. All hell ensues, so to speak. Armageddon via the 2nd advent of Jesus consumates the invasion with the hills of Israel strewn with dead bodies. Conclusion 2: No double fulfillment of Daniel or the other messianic prophets. What we observe on the world sceen in our day relative to those prophets and of Jesus and John attest to that.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.