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Author Topic:   Has natural selection really been tested and verified?
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 145 of 302 (537114)
11-27-2009 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Peg
11-27-2009 1:33 AM


Re: Here's mine
Peg writes:
his sentence stated that natural selection produces 'inheritable traits'
No it doesn't. It states that it makes those heritable traits more common, not that it produces them.

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Peg, posted 11-27-2009 1:33 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Peg, posted 11-27-2009 4:35 AM Huntard has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 150 of 302 (537129)
11-27-2009 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Peg
11-27-2009 4:35 AM


Re: Here's mine
Peg writes:
So, are 'mutations' the same 'inheritable traits' you are refering to?
No, the DNA is inheritable traits. Mutations are changes to those inheritable traits. When there are changes, NS starts to work on them, because the environment hasn't changed, but the traits of the individual have. Whether it is a positive or negative trait doesn't matter, NS will act upon it. It will also act when the environment changes, yet the traits remain the same.

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Peg, posted 11-27-2009 4:35 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Peg, posted 11-27-2009 4:54 AM Huntard has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 152 of 302 (537134)
11-27-2009 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Peg
11-27-2009 4:54 AM


Re: Here's mine
Peg writes:
ok, so there must be a lot of mutation occuring in order for there to be so much diveristy in life forms
Is this an accurate assumption?
Well, I've heard Wounded King mention that each individual has about 100 mutations that their parents don't have. But you really should ask him about that, I don't really know.

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Peg, posted 11-27-2009 4:54 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-27-2009 6:20 AM Huntard has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 157 of 302 (537151)
11-27-2009 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Bolder-dash
11-27-2009 8:16 AM


Let's try one more time
Bolder-dash writes:
Meanwhile, very disingenuously many of you have tried to somehow separate the concept of Natural Selection from RM, exact for the fact that no one can show how you can have natural selection work in your evolution theory without them.
But nobody says evolution can work without RM. We say NS can work without RM, which is true.
It must be very convenient for you evolutionists, you get to tell me what I can talk about, you get to tell me what I said, and you get to be moderated by another evolutionist who not only allows you all to inject numerous ad hominum attacks on everyone with a dissenting voice, but more importantly does nothing to stop all of you from derailing this thread (how many posts of there now been from people complaing that I am talking about RM when talking about evolution 50?-that's contributing to the topic???).
That's because for some reason you don't seem to be able to grasp what we are saying. NS has nothing to do with RM, Evolution has to do with both of them.
You can't talk about evolution without RM, your theory doesn't exist without them!!!
And nobody is saying we should.
If it does please explain it clearly how it can.
It can't.
I guess under such terms, it is no surprise that you all are convinced your theory has nothing to explain-you silence anyone who challenges it!
Yeah, sure...It's not our problem you fail to grasp what we are trying to tell you.
So, one more time. When talking about evolution, you're including RM and NS, when talking about NS, RM becomes irrelevant. When talking about RM, NS becomes irrelevant.
Is it clear now? And don't go off about why everybody says you can't talk about evolution, you can, it's just so broad a topic that it will lead to a complete derailment of the thread. This is why we keep threads to more isolated topics here, and this is why everybody is telling you that you are off-topic, because you're original question was only about NS.
Now then. Is it clear? If not, please ask specific questions. Thanks.

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-27-2009 8:16 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-27-2009 9:16 AM Huntard has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 162 of 302 (537157)
11-27-2009 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Bolder-dash
11-27-2009 9:16 AM


Re: Let's try one more time
Bolder-dash writes:
Are you the moderator now too?
No. I have no moderator privileges here whatsoever, I simply tried to explain where the confusion is coming from, and to give you some tips on how to prevent it.
Your side has many advantages I see.
My side has reality to support it.
How many contributions to the topic have you provided so far?
You can see that at the top of the page, my number of posts in this thread are listed there.
How many tests to prove your side have you contributed?
None. I first tried to get the confusion to go away.
Do you wish to calculate that as a percentage of the number of posts you have managed to bully into?
Bully into? None. I simply give you my oppinion and view of things, feel free to ignore them.

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-27-2009 9:16 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 298 of 302 (537653)
11-30-2009 4:13 AM


My summation
Since it's still not entirely clear to me what the topic of this thread was supposed to be about, I'll just keep this summation to NS (Natural Selection), which was the original question asked in the OP.
Throughout the thread we've been trying to make clear that NS works regardless of whether there are changes to the DNA or not. And that this has absolutely nothing to do with RM (Radnom Mutations). There have been examples given of NS at work in the wild, so clearly it has been demonstrated to work.
The most important thing to remember perhaps is that evolutionary change (something the OP wanted to see if NS had any effect on), is indeed effected by NS. Extinction is also evolution, so even if there were no RM and every species would go extinct, that would still be evolutionary change, and it would be accomplished by NS alone.

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

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