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Author Topic:   At what point should we look for a non-materialistic explanation?
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4745 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 134 of 160 (538569)
12-07-2009 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by 1.61803
12-07-2009 7:55 PM


Re: Out of the Blue
Magic is unexplained phenomenon that confounds until the trick is learned. Magic is entertainment.
I'd hoped we'd gotten past equivocation. If there is a coin hidden behind the kids ear, or Scotty beams the quarter behind the kids ear, for the magician to remove, we have a magic trick. If a genie pops the quarter behind the kids ear using no known or unknown forces of nature (having cause and effect relationships) we have magic. It is the latter that is of interest.
Intuition, Dreams, conciousness,language, ideas are examples of how the non physical can influence and direct our decisions.
Labeling an idea as non-physical is trivial. None of the above is example of what is meant by non-physical in this discussion. An idea generated by a brain, the brain then using the idea as impetus to act through the body has no unnatural (having no cause and effect relationships) elements. Everything one does has a non-materialistic explanation in that case.
Is your point that there is nothing in the universe that can be called non physical?
Yes.
Therefore the notion should be dispensed with ouright?
The question is "can it?". I think it can with a certainty of 99.999999999%. Others, however, believe anything they personally don't understand intuitively is caused by unnatural forces. So, At what point should we look for a non-materialistic explanation?
I believe there is more to the universe than the sum of its parts.
Maybe.
there is more to a human being than the sum of its parts.
Clearly.

The world breaks everyone, and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those it cannot break, it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these, you can be sure that it will kill you too, but there will be no special hurry.
Ernest Hemingway

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by 1.61803, posted 12-07-2009 7:55 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by 1.61803, posted 12-08-2009 10:37 AM lyx2no has replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4745 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 138 of 160 (538650)
12-08-2009 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by 1.61803
12-08-2009 10:37 AM


Re: Out of the Blue
If we equivocate "non-materialistic" as super natural then I would say I agree with you. However, in my opinion there is NOTHING that exist in nature that is supernatural. The fact that it exist means it is natural in my opinion. And if this is so then it seems reasonable to conclude that if something exist that is non-material then it is natural too.
Assuming you mean "equate", your "however" seems to be a case of eating your cake and keeping it too. "The fact that it exist" What exactly is "it" in this sentence? If it's generic never mind, but it looks more to me as if you're saying magic exists so by definition it isn't supernatural.
What would a non-material (non-physical, magical) cause look like?
I suspect that a non-material cause would fail to meet certain expectation of the natural world. Force would unrelated to acceleration, stress would be unrelated to strain, temperature would be unrelated to heat, ghosts can walk through wall but not fall through floors, etc.
If I'm standing on a scale while my mind lifts a table does it affect the reading? Does my mind have to exert more effort to lift a car? Can my mind lift a car at one meter, but only a table at 10 meters? Can my mind make a cup of soup without simultaneously making a bucket of ice?
If my mind has to make material trade-offs I'd assume a materialistic explanation will ensue eventually.
If my mind does not have to make material trade-offs I'd be at a lose as to how one could possibly discover a materialistic explanation.
We have yet to discover any effect that didn't make trade-offs. Until we do non-materialistic explanations are a non-starter.
Why not go the whole enchilada?
Because so far I've only been able to examine 110-270 of the Universe. I want to hold off until I get to 110-268.
Edited by lyx2no, : Typo.

The world breaks everyone, and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those it cannot break, it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these, you can be sure that it will kill you too, but there will be no special hurry.
Ernest Hemingway

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by 1.61803, posted 12-08-2009 10:37 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by 1.61803, posted 12-09-2009 3:25 PM lyx2no has seen this message but not replied

  
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