Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,913 Year: 4,170/9,624 Month: 1,041/974 Week: 368/286 Day: 11/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Biological Evidence Against Intelligent Design
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 179 of 264 (546031)
02-07-2010 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Straggler
02-07-2010 1:08 PM


Re: Complexity
How can we meaningfully say that "God" is too complex to have been the first non-caused cause when we don't know what "complexity" is in any objective sense?
Dawkins says that simple to complex is an evidenced and one way conclusion. And I agree intuitively. But it troubles me that we cannot objectively define what it is that is that is simple or complex in the context of this argument.
The people that raise the design argument, when you explore what they are saying - seem to be making a top-down argument rather than a bottom up one and that his point is addressing this.
He specifically says that all the characteristics the designer these people are talking about are all the same kinds of characteristics that we started out trying to explain! Intelligence, sentience, forethought, some kind of implementation capability etc.
Whether you agree or disagree do you see where I am coming from?
I agree that if you rely on the terms 'simple' and 'complex' to communicate something then you have to at some point explain what you mean by the terms. I suspect that it may end up being circular: A complex thing being defined as being many simple things interacting with one another.
And I appreciate that there are potentially ...ahem...complex issues to worry about there...if we're going to do Analytical Philosohpy the subject could keep us occupied for several thousand words and we'd still have only got as far as explaining what we mean by 'define'.
Incidentally - I'm perfectly happy to do this subjectively and then go a bit...I dunno, erm heterophenomenological all over it, to wit:
The evidence seems to be that things that humans are inclined to identify as complex are actually many interacting things that humans identify as simple, despite humans generally defining those two things as being exclusive properties.
And for the purposes of this debate - I think that saves us a lot of time. If we are writing a science paper or a philosophical treatise we might want to go deeper.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Straggler, posted 02-07-2010 1:08 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Straggler, posted 02-08-2010 4:30 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024