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Author | Topic: Entropy in Layman's Terms | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
As a Layperson, I enjoy learning, but do need more visuals to understand some of the scientific concepts and jargon. How long I retain this information is another matter since I don't think of energy every day.
quote:I understand the water in the bucket analogy. Thank you quote:Yes, jargon tends to complicate the issue; especially when the common meaning of the word isn't used. That's why I stay out of the science arena. Religion has the same problem. Catch phrases or jargon are spoken that don't carry the common meaning. quote:I understand that the water eventually reaches the same temperature. I'm a little fuzzy on the energy transfer. Are you saying that energy transfer is like a balancing act? (I'm visualizing Parasomnium's Panda and Tiger) Energy is expended to melt the ice and once done no more energy is needed for that purpose. Kinda like when I'm relaxing in my chair and then grandson spills his drink on the floor. I now have to leave my relaxed position and expend energy to clean up the spill. Once done, I will go back to my relaxed position. The spill is the disparity. Once cleaned up, balance is back and I don't have to expend that energy. quote:IOW, "wasted" energy. Not used for the work at hand. Makes me think of my daughter as a teenager cleaning out the dishwasher. Take out a few dishes and then dance around the floor (headphones). The dancing around the floor is wasted energy. quote:Because there is always going to be wasted energy, right? quote:I didn't quite understand where the wasted energy is in this one unless it is still the heat wasted in the moving process. Overall I feel I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately, if we got into a science discussion, as soon as one goes back to the jargon the visual is lost. Son Goku lost me. Thanks for the lesson. Learn something new everyday.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:If I'm trying to explain something to someone outside the field, I would avoid using the jargon. I would put the jargon in parenthesis. Right now I have to go back to the opening post and refresh my memory on entropy. Entropy is simply energy unavailable to do work. I understand the water wheel. It's easy. The water in the tank is available or in a position to drive the wheel (work). The water in the pool is not available or in a position to drive the wheel (work). So lower entropy means more energy available for work and higher entropy means less energy available for work.
quote:Your example doesn't have the idea of equilibrium as the water and ice example. One thing to remember with laypeople is not to get to literal with our analogies. When we try to create an analogy or visual that helps us remember what something means, it may not be scientifically correct. I am the heat, the spill is the ice cube. The hot water is balanced (me resting in a chair) until an ice cube is thrown in (the spill occurs). Rrhain said: If you have a cube of ice and a pot of boiling water, there will be energy flow between the two if we put them into a system: However, that energy flow only happens because of the disparity in their energy states. The heat flows from the boiling water into the ice and eventually, the water hits equilibrium. In the hot water example, the hot water still contains energy, but there is no "work" to do. When the ice cube is dropped in there is "work" to do. Hence the spill thought. I understand what you're saying concerning the water wheel, but it doesn't give me the idea of balance or equilibrium. That's the one I'm trying to make sure I understand. Since entropy isn't something I say or think of every day; I would always have to go back and read the definition. Unfortunately, entropy sounds like a disease.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:As I was explaining to Percy, don't take lay analogies so literally. I was afraid someone would do what you just did. I'm the heat, the spill is the ice cube. quote:So it is the heat generated that is wasted. Heat that is not available to be used for anything else. So entropy can be wasted energy or it can be unusable energy for a specific job. The hot air is wasted energy. Not reused for anything. But in the case of Percy's waterwheel, the water at the bottom is unusable energy in its present position for that specific job.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:From a laypersons standpoint equilibrium is balance, not lack of movement. That's why the water wheel doesn't give me a visual of balance. At the beginning the top is full and the bottom empty, then the top is empty and the bottom is full. With the boiling water image, I can understand balance because the water eventually reaches the same temperature. From what I've learned so far, I now understand Rrhain's statement: There are many pithy sayings regarding the Second Law and entropy, but the problem with them is that they wind up being used in places where they make no sense. The reductions are accurate, but can only be understood within the concept of thermodynamics, not other areas. So if we're going to explain it in layman's terms, we have to start with making the point that entropy is a statement about energy. It isn't about "information" or "order" or "disorder." So I take it the concept of entropy was born in thermodynamics. Is the water wheel supposed to be an analogy for heat flow?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I would think the water wheel would be more like the bucket that Rrhain mentioned. The water not available for work is the water that stays attached to the buckets, splashes, leaks or soaked into the wood if they are wood. The water at the bottom is still available for work. It just has to be returned to the top. quote:See that doesn't give me a visual since a rug or room doesn't do work. They are viewed as work to be done. From my perspective that is like the ice cube. The heat has no work to do until the ice cube is dropped in.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Remember this is about layman's terms. I understand what you're saying about the pencil, but the water wheel doesn't provide that picture. I wouldn't view the water as unstable. You're using words that mean something very different to me than they do to you concerning the situation. I wouldn't view potential energy as unstable. Potential energy has positive impression to me and unstable has a negative from my perspective. The pencil is visually unstable on a sharpened tip. So with the pencil, where is the energy that is unavailable to do work?
quote:So with the water wheel, you're talking about entropy concerning movement. The boiling water deals with entropy concerning heat. The visual seems to be different depending on the type of energy being discussed.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I understand why there can't be a literally perpetual motion machine. I wouldn't have considered that a possibility even before I read this thread just by looking at the world around me. So as heat moves it either does work or it is wasted (can't be used for work or no opportunity to do work). Heat that is not used for work is entropy? So from a very very simplistic view, entropy is wasted heat. I understand the waste in machines. How does the waste manifest itself in things that are not manmade or influenced by man?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:So energy lost in one reaction is not necessarily unusable in another reaction. quote:Now I understand the equilibrium part. Equilibrium means no "work" is possible. quote:Understood. Why would a layperson need to understand entropy? I understand what you're saying concerning entropy on a very basic level, but what does this knowledge do for me or any layperson?
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