What constitutes matters of Brotherhood and Fellowship?

Since I do not follow the teachings of John Calvin why do you refer to me as a Calvinist?[/qs]Yeah I know I was just joking The sameone that says your are condemed if you do not believe. As I indicated and to which you paid no attention, baptism is simply a form of active faith. repentance is also a form of active faith or belief.Not obeying the command in Mark 16:16 or its tenets, one or all constitues disbelief and therefore condemnation. If one starts the process of belief by a mental process but does not follow through with the command to be baptized he has exercised disbelief by not adhering to the rest of the passage Wrong once again. All of the acts including baptism are a result of the mental process, I understand (mentally) the necessity of baptism to actually carry the act out. every command we obey or follow is an act of faith not a work, therefore belief.Once again this is why christ was not redundant in his repeating of the second part, its all essentially belief.When the scriptures says Abraham believed God andit was copunted as righteouness to him, a simple mental process was not what was under consideration. Abraham followed the instructionsof God through belief in action, which were acts of faithBaptism is not only a mental process that I acknoweldge as an act o f faith it is also an action carried out by faith in God This is called wave of the hand debating, you need to demonstrate why the illustration is invalid Because baptism and its action are a part of an active faith or belief, they involve the same fundamental principle. So does confession, repentance and faithfulness. there not works by man to save himself as some assume, they are faith in action to Gods requirements Yes it does,because baptism is belief in action
Your error is that you make an absolute distinction between belief and baptism and there is really none. They are just faith in action, like confession, repentance and faithfulnessAbrahams obedience in following Gods commands, even to sacrifice his son, were belief in action, even though there was a clear physical action involved, it was just a belief in God by following his commandsTo seperate the two in Mark 16:16 is both simplistic and demonstrates a basic misunderstanding of what faith actually is This is weird
you do realize you just demonstrated my point correct? Most people (calvinist) will say that the word EIS means BECAUSE OF. your saying and interpreting it correctly.TWORDS and UNTO means that your are going to RECIEVE the remission of sins, when the commands are obeyed. You just refuted your own position on the greek word EIS I coudnt have said it better I agree again, because it is God that saves but we cannot be saved unless we obey his command of Baptism, which is actually belief in action. therefore, not being baptized AS COMMANDED is not believing in Gods wishes or desires, therefore condemnation resultsEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

this is human reasoning trying to explain biblical concepts, in this instance faith and belief. Human logic does not work here. For as i explained to ICANT, any response to Gods commands, is an action of faith or belief and this is what jesus was gettin at in Mark 16:16They are both Belief and where there is no belief, whether by a lack of mental acknowledgment or in an inactive faith, (in this instance NOT following the command of baptism)condemnation is the result. You would be correct if baptism were seperate from belief, it is not. It is an action of active faith and a requirement of God himself, not meAgain Belief is what is required, it just so happens that Baptism is just another expression of belief. without an active faith, in this instance Baptism, condemnation is the resultIn short you cannot BELIEVE God without being baptized, because Baptism is what he requires as a part of Belief in this instance. They are inseprable, therefore immutable
EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

What actually goes on in and amoung my brothers and sisters in not actually known to everyone everywhere, because each congregation is autonomous and there is no headquarters.We do have certain leading papers that tend to influence certain areas of the church. For example The Gospel Advocate has a big influence in the South where I m from.If they taught their members to defend this then they taught them correctly. However:The expression Baptisimal regeneration is a correct term, but it is misapplied and over exaggerated. One might as well use the term Confessional regeneration, Repentance regeneration or Belief regenerationWe believe like everyone else that it is the power of God that saves, "you are saved by Grace through Faith, that not of yourself, it is the gift of God" not physical elements like water. It just so happens that God has chosen Baptism as a part of that faith a s a direct command to be obyed. its still just Faith in actionSecondly and more to the point my brethren have made the expression in Acts 2:38, "For the remmision of sins" a command to be believed, when in fact it IS THE RESULT OF OBEYING CERTAIN COMMANDS, like repent and be baptized.In my view they erroneously teach that if one does not understand fully that Baptism is for the remmision of sins (which it clearly is) that the Baptism is ineffective and unscriptual.My response is that that expression while absolutley true, is not a command to be obeyed. secondly the efficacy of Baptism, that is, its power does not lie in what we know about it, but what we know and believe about Jesus Christ as Gods son.IOW, God will DO what he promised (the forgiveness of sins), when we through faith obey the commands. The latter part is a promise to be accepted, not a command to be obeyedBaptism is a two-fold response by the desciple of Christ, he is doing it as a response to the Gospel, because he believes Jesus is the son of God and because he recognizes that this is what God requires of him. hence:"here is water what does hender me to be baptized"Baptism and its meeting of the blood of Christ in that act of faith is certainly for the remmision of alien sins. Now, one would wonder why they do not understand this at baptism if taught correctly, but iF they do not, IS THE BAPTISM INEFFECTIVE, ABSOLUTLEY NOT. The power of God TO SAVE does not lie in what we understand, but what we do in acts of faith.When he dipped in the river Jordan 7 times, I doubt he understood how doing this would cure his illness, but it did because he believed and acted on that belief, through following the instructions given to him.Many of my brethren, like myself early on have believed and been taught that they are the only Christians, becaus ethey go this aspect correct, this is simply not true because, it is not a command to be OBEYED but it should be taught as it is presented in the scripturesjesus said, "this is the blood of my covenant which is for many FOR THE REMMISION OF SINS. Jesus did not shed his blood because sins were already forgiven, but TWORDS, UNTO, the remmision of sinsShould we teach people that baptism is for UNTO, TWORDS the remission of sins, absolutley. if one does does not fully understand this at their baptism, because they believe Jesus is the son of God, is their baptism ineffective, absolutley NOT.Can one simply mentally believe in Jesus and never be baptized, by NOT acting on that faith, through baptism and be saved, not according to Mark 16:16EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

No, I try and answer them in principle, if however there is something you think I have missed, please present it To fulfill all righteouness Since i dont know what you are after here, Ill let you answer first He was decended upon by the Spirit of God Yes He (the theif) was still under the old Covenant before jesus died and Jesus had power as God to forgive sins directly at that time, as he indicated many times.He then after his death, became the mediator of a new and better covenant. Hebrews chapter 9. While the testator is still alive he or she can do things directly or make changes to the Will before their death.After his death and resurrection he appointed a way for for forgiveness of sins to be applied and that was through Belief and baptism.We see this clearly in Acts chapter two, where Peter used the figurative KEYS, he was promised by Christ in matt 16. He then instructed people how to enter the kingdom, by Belief, repentance and baptism for the remission.This was Gods plan of the new and better covenant after his depature. A Will and Testament is only in effect after the DEATH of the testator.The theif on the cross had direct contact with the testator but did not need the conditions (in this instance baptism)of the new testament since the testator had power to forgive sins immediately and in that instance.We on the other hand have to follow the New testament or New covenant, since we d onot have direct contact with Jesus as he didHe is and was alsoLord of the Sabbath, even though he went by the Sabbath laws You as wellEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Jaywill sorry I have not gotten back to this post, I will get back to it as soon as possible today

I hope services were insightful today, welcome back This is a concept I am not familiar with, is this something you have been taught always or have you developed this idea from scripture I never seen or hearf this distinction characterized as you have here. That pretty interesting perhaps you could clarify maybe we simply dont know on this area. I value your scriptural insight however, so do the dance, that dance of knowledgeMe B You Its now later, so get to it, ha ha This is true as you so capably put it all the time. But doesnt this involve a degree of faithfulness and devotion on the part of the believer Again since we do not accept the doctrine of Premillinilism and a thousand year reign, perhaps you could explain Do you derive this latitude from scripture, or is just a feeling ThanksEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Jaywill and ICANT and others I will work on a response to your latest posts this evening, kinda busy yesterday and today, thanksEAM

. It hit me like a ton of bricks, in a small still voice (no im not hearing voices). I did not extrapolate it from an existing thought, its you he (God) is after here.right when we are assured of our own importnace,hesays thats not it EAM. Jaywill you are Apollus and I am Percilla and Aquilla. You are comparable to Apollous and Iam comparable to them in knowledge. Your ability to communicate the word of God and its parts is comparable to him. You simply needto be shown a more complete or perfect way
Your not familiar with our debates with premillennialists, starting in the middle 1800s to the nearly present are you? In these debates Men like Foe E Wallace jr,dismantle that doctrine. One of the better and more extensive and comprehensive ones is the Neal-Wallace debate on the thousand year reignof Christ. It is my desire that you now read that very lengthy debate to see the flaws of that doctrine. Not a problem Apollous, just a concern. We can only know that these conclusions are valid if the doctrine of P is true to begin with, correct?
I suspected you would refer to passages such as "and that servant which knew his master will and did not do it will be beaten with many srtipes and that servant which did not know the Lord or his will, will be beaten with few stripes"
Concerning the "sin unto death" John mentions I believe that you made this comment. Ofcourse you are [qs]This touches on the matter of fellowship. The last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) We Christians who have the life giving Spirit must minister life to one another. If you have not noticed yet you may eventually see that it is very easy to give out more and more knowledge. It is not easy to impart spiritual life.
Paul told the Ephesian elders to feed the sheep. He did not simply say teach the sheep. Our fellowhip should help people touch the Person of Jesus Himself. That gives them life.
I think whether the sin unto death is just physical death or eternal perdition is not as important to me as the phrase "give him life". Christ gave us life. In our fellowship we should also give life to others. [qs] very true My concern iswhy these principles cannot apply here and now It certainly would have helped if he would made it cleaer that this is the age he is refering to in these contexts. I see your points clearly, but I am not sure your are not simply reading intothe passages what you want to see. Again I see what you are saying, lets see if the doctrine is valid to begin with, Premillennialism, that is [qs]23"Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished(AK) to settle accounts with his servants.[h] 24When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him(AL) ten thousand(AM) talents.[i] 25(AN) And since he could not pay, his master ordered him(AO) to be sold, with his wife and(AP) children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26So the servant[j](AQ) fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' 27And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and(AR) forgave him the debt. 28But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred(AS) denarii,[k] and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, 'Pay what you owe.' 29So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' 30He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. 31When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. 32Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33(AT) And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' 34(AU) And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,[l](AV) until he should pay all his debt. 35(AW) So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother(AX) from your heart."[/qs] This sounds possible, lets see if the doctrine is true first.I see what you are getting atEAM

Before why? What does that have to do with baptism.? At his birth when Mary was overshadowed. What does this have to dowith us? They werent only the Apostles were given the Spirit on that occasion Who were all commisioned by God to do so Did everyone accept it from the foundation of the world, or even when it was presented
John writes:
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
God's plan of salvation has been in effect since before the first man was formed from the dust of the earth.
EMA writes:
After his death and resurrection he appointed a way for for forgiveness of sins to be applied and that was through Belief and baptism. Yes of course. "Howbeit when he the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth"
"And whatsoever you bind on earth", etc etcAnd I will give to you Peter the keys to t he kingdom’ It was true before during and after his resurrection. Im not getting the point of your one line questions, do you have a point to make with them or are going to keep quizing me Again ICANT you are being way to detailed and specifc with matters that are intertwined and interrelated. certainly greek words have meanings, but they do not have to carry the full wieight of an idea in one word all the time. Actually there is not an ORDER here as you suggest as much as there is a process of things to achieve a desired result. the forgiveness of sinsIf you want to be that specific I could equally argue that to teach involves both the process of descipleship and baptism as the crowning result of how to make them fully desciples, because this is exacally what Christ commanded in mark 16:16. i could further argue that the way to make desiciples was to baptize them, because the passage can be read from that perspective as wel, backed by other scriptures. Watch this, "Why do you wait, arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" This passage in Acts to Saul is an exact parrallel to Matt 28:19-20, it has all the same elements, even "calling on the name of the Lord", "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit". Do you see the parallels? And Acts 22 seems to be saying exacally what Acts 2:38 is saying and what matt 28 is saying and what mark 16, is saying So if you desire an order there it isActs 22:16EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

I understnd what you are saying my simple friend. however, this is not a discussion on Faith and reason, it is a biblical discussion in a comparative religion thread on what constitutes fellowship. One can discuss what is involved in faith from a bilical perspective, without getting into a discussion about whether faith involves reason. I most certaily believe faith involves reason, but what faith is from a Biblical perspective can and is often differnt from that topic I wll be more than happ to disuss faith and reason at some other point. lets stay with one thing at a time With all due respect it is clear you are not paying attention. If you were you should have seen that I gave detailed discription and explanation to ICANT as to why the thief did not rquuire baptism. Please refer to that post Besides this. you write to jaywill, the above statement. If there are two conditions, what is your further contention????EAM

Before, I said Consider the fact that you may be wrong on the doctrine of P. That being the case I may be here to direct you to material (not myself)and knowledge that will perfect your already magnificent skills in relating Gods word Dont you and I already hold a position of the 1000 year reign of Christ? Do me a favor and give the debate a chance, while we are discussing these matters. I have no problem discussing any of these issues as far and as much as you want, but atleast review and absorb the flavor of what is being said in that discussion. Are you familiar with any of the anti-P arguments? If the parable is to be understood literally in relation tothatevent, then I agree with you. How could I disagree. I have nothing to compare it against and that constitues my following commentsIf we examine each parable, notjust concerning punishment, might we be able to come to and develope theories that seem to fit other ideas or ideologies? here ismy initial problemtothis approach,besides the one already advanced (P could be wrong). No one else seems to be aware of this intermediate state of existence. Paul in all his lettersnever speaks about it nor does he refernce it.Secondly and more importantly, Revelations is a book of metaphors, figures, illustrations, apocraphal images and language, why should we considr the number 1000 to be literal in such circumstances, when we have nothing to compare it against except more figurative and desriptive numbers, in the scriptures. IOW, if there were someother writer that had referenced this period of grace and punishment, we could say with certainty, yes this is what the parable means. Also, this is a pretty big idea, this intermidiate state of existene
I believe the bible isall truth as you do, and there is no reason to suggest that the Bible is untuthful when it says he killed 1000 philistines with jawbone, but wouldit be lying to say that this number is descriptive of a large numberbut necessarily 1000 exacally. These peopleput alot of significance in numbers, especially rounded of numbers, correct? You may be right I have nothing to compare it against , except for the fact that the P doctrine teaches that Christ has not yet established his kingdom, which is incorrect.Me YouwillBut isnt that what the passages is referencing, punishment?Anyone who does not see that the eternal age does not commence immediately after the second coming of Christ will have difficulty understanding temporary reward and temporary discipline administered to the saved children of God.
My concern iswhy these principles cannot apply here and now Understood, I did not take it that way. Thanks alsofor the exhortation.It certainly would have helped if he would made it cleaer that this is the age he is refering to in these contexts. I see your points clearly, but I am not sure your are not simply reading into the passages what you want to see. great. Its why I read what you writeMe YouYes sir. Not unconvinced as much as I am convinced that numbers hold a specialmeaning in scripture that they do otherwise. consider the following on Armegedon Dave Miller, A.P.Press
The whole article here
Will There be an Armageddon? - Apologetics Press Let me know what you think In a way I hope you are right, but which passage should be taken literally John 14Please continue with your passages you suggested.EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Certainly, but this has nothing to do with whether baptism is a part of he New covenant and whether it is necessary for salvation. You are ixing up two different ideas I agree with all of this AND MORE. Its a common practice of the Baptist or calvanist to isolate one verse of scripture, and say something like, "Well see that all the scriptures has to say about being or becoming a child of God, Just believe", when in fact jesus himself said, one must "be baptized, "to be saved". Those are not my words, they are his, so lets examine all he has to say, not just parts.Is it true Jesus said this in mark 16:16, Yes or No? The promise of the holy spirit was made to the Apostles. Go to jeruselum where you will reieve power from on high. he was not speaking to the entire clan of believers at that time, nor did the other desciples recieve that gift at that time. You are reading past what is actually stated in Acts chapter oneActs 1. Notice the words THEM and THEY in this passageNowhere in verses 12-26, does it say that the 120 disciples recieved the Holy Spirit baptism. read carefully [qs]Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey. 13 And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication,[b] with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
Matthias Chosen15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples[c] (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 For it is written in the Book of Psalms:‘ Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;[d]and,‘ Let[e]another take his office.’[f]21 Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.[/qs]Now look at the verbage of Chapter two as to who recieved the Holy Spirit baptism on this occasionActs 2 [qs]When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"13Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine.[b]"Peter Addresses the Crowd
14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.'[c] [/qs]The promise was made earlier to the Apostles, then it says, "Then peter stood up with the eleven", a clear reference to who was endowed on this occasion because he says he will guide them into all truth. On pentecost Peter provided the new covenant method for all time to the end of the age for how we are to preach the gospel to the nations [qs]Saul realized this was a powerful entity as said "who art thou Lord". Again ICANT you are reading into the scriptures what you want to see. While admirable, it is misguded.You have Jesus saying something in this passage, that he did not say in another, namely mark 16:16. Jesus did not tell Paul he was saved on the road to Damascus, you have read that into the Passage. In fact, he was told to go to a certain place where it WOULD BE TOLD HIM WHAT HE NEEDED TO DO.In that place Annanias repeated jesus' words in Mark 16:16. Athis point we can have confidence that the messenger correctly relayed what Jesus wanted him to do to be saved."Why do you wait, arise be baptized and wash away your sins" This corresponds correctly with both mark 16:16 and acts 2:38. imagine that True but he hadnt obyed the gospel yet.EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Sounds good, feel free to jump in with me and jaywill, but lets try and keep it in Jaywills present scope

I think you did a pretty good job in grabbing ahold of , not to mention, "touching" some of these things. This will take some tiime to digest and formulate a coherent response. land sakes alive and good graveSee you in a whileEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Jaywill was this post directed twords me, Im sorry I missed it and I wanted to apologize to you and ICANT, I get wrapped up in life, work and home stuff I cant seem to break away to complete the posts I want to. Ill get back to yiour most recent post this evening if all goes well. Dont mean to keep apologizing, just dont want you to think i have abandoned my responsibilities.In the meatime, this blonde rushes into the store out of breath and proclaims, does anyone have a way to get into a car Ive locked my keys inside it. the store person says CLAM DOWN lady, Ihave a device for just such an occasion and hands her a hanger. In a few minutes he goes out to check on her progress and she says Im not having any luck bec ause I keep missing the key hole AND MY TWIN SISTER INSIDE IS RUNNING OUT OF AIR.When I told this to my wife she said, you think thats funny dont you and I said, well if its ok , YES.. She is not blonde but is the spitting image of Jane Russell and Im always telling her you can believe anything and think anything you want sweetie, just keep looking like jane and Ill believe anything you tell me.See you this evening, I hopeEAM