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Author | Topic: Why is sin heritable? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Hey Larni,
When I saw the title, I thought, about time someone brought that up (although my position is probably opposite); but after that your OP didn't thrill me at all. The title asks why sin is heritable and your first question is why did Yahweh make sin heritable. Two very good questions. Unfortunately the rest of your OP deals with punishment and suffering, not sin. Sin is the offense, not the punishment. Since religious and moral laws change, what is considered sin also changes. I don't see that sin is heritable or that YHWH made sin heritable. What in the Bible gives you the impression that sin is heritable or that YHWH made sin heritable? Hopefully you do want to discuss whether sin is heritable and not just another thread on punishment and suffering supposedly caused by God. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I figured that would be the verse. Paul is the one implying that "sin" was passed through the generations, not YHWH. 1. That verse is in a letter written by Paul, not God.2. Paul is preaching, not speaking for God. (D'rash) 3. Sometimes it takes a while before Paul gets to his point. 4. Paul is personifying sin and death. Neither is a thing. His point is at verse 18.
5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? Paul isn't saying that "sin" is now gone. One still has to choose to obey, just as they did throughout the OT. From the Prophet Ezekiel
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. Sales pitches are usually all encompassing. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Yes quote:Paul is a salesman. He personifies sin to make his point. Sin is not something to have. It is something we are capable of doing. IOW, going against the rules. A&E also had that capability before eating from the tree. In that sense, yes, God created us with the capability to disobey. One has to break a rule to be a sinner. Once restitution is made, when possible, one is no longer a sinner. The idea that we are all wrought with sin due to no action of our own, IMO, was generated from Paul's writings.
quote:I don't see how that says anything about inherent "sin". Adam and Eve were punished for their mistake. The story doesn't tell us they continued to break the rules once they left the garden. Cursing the ground is the consequence, not the action. God tells Cain he can master the urge to do wrong.
4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it." Again sin is personified.
quote:Actually, it's more like a couple who start out with everything and make a mistake that causes them to lose everything, then they have kids. The kids will be impacted by the consequences of their parents choices, but the kids aren't being punished. They live in an apartment instead of a mansion, etc. Another good lesson from the story. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You're talking about consequences, not sin. Sin is the breaking of a religious or moral law. Without a religious or moral law, one cannot sin. If you want to take the story as an actual event, I can't answer those questions. You'll have to talk to God about those questions. Neither Adam or Eve or their children were cursed with "sin". As I said, they were capable of disobeying before they ate the apple. The ability was there. Mankind still has that capability today, some people are more inclined to wickedness than others. Christians still have that capability. That capability isn't removed when they start believing. Why did YHWH give us that capability? Since we are made in his image, I would say probably because God has that capability or maybe it was something in the dirt. Doesn't most intelligent life have the capability to make bad choices or go against the norm of their group? Edited by purpledawn, : Added comment on sin. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You're embellishing a bit on the text, unless you are using perfect to mean completed. The text does not say the man became a perfect living being, just a living being. The text doesn't say that Eden was perfect.
quote:Had God not put the tree of Knowledge of good and evil in the garden, we would have the same result. Who had better knowledge of what would likely happen? So God created mankind with the ability to make choices (whether right or wrong) and put an enticing tree in the middle of the garden, but told them it was off limits.
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. If God didn't want mankind to have the ability to make choices, he would have destroyed all mankind in the flood. By saving Noah and his family, God allowed mankind to continue with the ability to sin. This tells us that God wanted mankind to be this way. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:False. Adam was the prototype and he was created with the ability to sin or not. The snake didn't disobey according to the story. Eve was the first to disobey and then Adam. Without a rule, there is no sin. That's why A&E could run around naked without shame. Once they ate and obtained the knowledge of good and evil, then they knew that being naked was wrong according to that culture. quote:That's one of the problems with trying to get more out of a children's story than intended. Even in Romans, Paul isn't saying that mankind so longer has the capability to sin. For those who feel Paul wrote Hebrews, even there it is obvious that mankind still has the ability to sin.
Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Why God made mankind with that capability, we may never know. We can only speculate. If we go by the Genesis 1 story that says mankind is made in God's image, then we have that capability because God has that capability. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Which is irrelevant to whether "sin" is heritable. The consequences seem to bother you more than the idea we are able to sin. Nature 1 a : the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing : essence b : disposition, temperament Some people are more apt to sin than others. They have a "sin nature". Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Again, you're asking questions the stories don't provide the answer to. Sin is not a component of our being. Sin is not a thing. Remember, Paul personifies sin, that doesn't make it a thing. People have the ability to decide what they want to do, right or wrong. Why do we make laws today? People break those laws. We call them lawbreakers. It's the same thing. In dog breeds, we can see aggressive temperaments and passive temperaments. Some temperaments are easier to train than others. We see in Native American history differences between the temperament of tribes. Some were more warlike than others. God picked the Hebrews and found out they weren't easy to train. Maybe he wanted a challenge. If you want to get rid of the ability to sin, get rid of rules. No rules, nothing to disobey. Can we really get rid of all rules in our society today? Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You're still personifying. They didn't inherit sin. Because they are a product of the prototypes which had the ability to make decisions (obey or disobey), they will also have the ability to make decisions. Just like they have the ability to feel fear, happiness, sadness, heal, etc. Notice Cain had an issue with "obeying", but Abel didn't. But God said Cain could master that urge to do wrong. Cain chose not to master the urge. The ability to decide to follow rules or not is part of human nature. We also decide when we feel a rule is unjust. Would you have it otherwise? People in the Bible stories have challenged God's decisions and God has backed off. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I think you and I are roughly on the same wavelength concerning sin. We differ on a few things.
quote:Although Paul's personification in Romans implies death came in through Adam, the A&E story doesn't really support his line. I don't feel that A&E created death. Like sin, death is not a thing. God planted a tree of life and threatened death. So death was already possible. Actually Abel would have been the first death as far as we know in the story. I think God downgraded the disciplinary action because their decision was influenced by the snake.
quote:I like that summary. quote:Exactly! Sometimes people look for more than the story can give them. For all Paul's preaching, people still have the capability to sin and die whether they are believers or not. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:What part of story don't you understand? This is a story. Read it like any other story. Unless the narrator tells the audience that Adam doesn't understand what God said or one of the other characters in the story tells us that Adam doesn't understand, then the audience accepts that Adam understood what God said when he said if he ate, he would die.
quote:It doesn't matter. There is a narrator in the story. The narrator already knows what happened since the story is in the past. As the story is written, Adam understood what God said. quote:So what does any of this have to do with whether sin is heritable? Like most, you're focusing on the consequences; which isn't the point of this discussion. While everyone has the capability to sin, IMO, not everyone has a sinful nature. IOW, they aren't prone to wickedness. Some people have no problem breaking the law and others have no inclination to break the law. Some people have to work harder at not breaking the law than others. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:But it isn't part of the story. He still had the potential to sin. quote:They would still have the ability to make decisions. The Tree of Knowlege of Good and Evil (TKGE) just wouldn't have been a choice put before them. The TKGE didn't give them the ability to make choices. They could eat from any tree in the garden. They made choices daily on which tree to eat from on any specific day. If Adam hadn't eaten, there would only be two people for God to contend with.If God hadn't put the TKGE in the middle of the garden, there would only be two people for God to contend with. As I said, same result.
quote:I agree that by not destroying Noah and his family that God still wanted mankind to have the ability to choose between good and evil. quote:Only if one chooses wickedness, IOW to sin. Sin is not inherited. The ability to choose sin is in all of us, although in reality I feel there are cases where people really don't have a choice. An anomaly in their genetic or physical makeup. Some of those anomalies can be inherited. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
We agree that sin is not heritable. It is a shame that Paul's writings mislead people into thinking that it is.
I think Paul's logic is flawed. He says that because the first man sinned, all men sinned. Since sin is the cause of death, all men must die. Just as sin is not inherited it is not the cause of natural death either. Before God decided to keep them away from the Tree of Life he said to the man.
Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return." Natural death is not a consequence of Adam's sin. They were already capable of dying naturally. Paul was a good salesman, but some of his preaching doesn't really hold water. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You're personifying. Humans are capable of disobedience. One can described what constitutes disobedience, but we can't point to disobedience until it happens. It is an act, not an entity. There is no disobedience until there is a rule or order made by someone to disobey. Eve may have committed the first act of disobedience, but the description of what constituted disobedience came as soon as God made the rule and stated the consequences. (Genesis 2:17) This was before the woman was created. A&E sinned, but sin did not enter the "universe" as you put it or mankind. Since we agree sin is not inherited and sin is not the cause of natural death, why would you say the consequence is death? The threat was instant death, the actual consequences were very different. Death didn't enter the "universe" from the outside. As soon as God created biological organisms, death was inevitable. It had nothing to do with A&E. Gods were considered immortal. As soon as God made mortals, natural death was inevitable. As far as Genesis 3:19, if you look at the return to the ground as punishment, then it was only for Adam. Eve was made of bone and that wasn't part of her punishment. They weren't punished with natural death. As biological organisms that was inevitable. They ultimately lost the opportunity to eat from the tree of life, which the story doesn't tell us they even knew about it. So they lost as option they probably didn't know they had. So we agree that sin is not inherited and that sin is not the cause of natural death.We disagree on Paul's logic, although I understand the purpose of his presentation. That's another topic. Edited by purpledawn, : Typo Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Neither of the verses deals with the Mosaic Law. You picked a song and a parable, both written in poetic style. Neither is saying that sin is inherited. Mankind has the choice to obey or disobey rules put before them. Just because we have that choice doesn't mean we have to disobey. Don't confuse words written in humility or self-deprecation to be fact. Even Job's friend told him he was talking nonsense. Illness and genetic issues aside, in reality, sin is not a thing to be inherited. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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