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Author
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Topic: Born Again
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 12 of 388 (605431)
02-19-2011 4:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 11 by Buzsaw
02-19-2011 3:39 PM
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Re: Origins of an Idea
Buzsaw writes: Jon writes: Say what? John 3:5 is quoting Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be born from above of God's spirit, i.e. the Holy Spirit, in order to see God's kingdom. If he didn't mean what he said, what do you think he meant? There simply seems to be nothing overly special or procedural about what Jesus is saying. In fact, most of what he says to Nicodemus is just gibberish. There are no special instructions to help Nicodemus understand what it means to be born 'from above', and Nicodemus' repeated bouts of confusion testify to that fact. How are you so certain what the passage means without any further context? Even Jesus' discourse partner is baffled, with a confusion Jesus never bothers to clear up. Jon Why do you think I went to the work of citing corroborating scripture for the clarification of Jesus's statement. You're mine quoting Jesus, isolating one statement so as to obfuscate his message to Nicodemus. In so doing, you undermine the scripture and teaching of Jesus at large. Sons/children are not made. They are born. Adam and eve were intelligent human-kind creatures of God, designed after his image. NT spiritually born sons/children are what Nicodemus spoke of. In the OT, God's children of Israel were not instructed to refer to him as father. It was a different dispensational era of humanity. The OT predicted the kingdom of Jehovah to come on earth. The NT depicts a unique dispensation of a called out people from all nations to become the spiritual bride of Christ to rule with him for the messianic millennium prophesied for the latter days in the restored nation of Israel. It is the children or redeemed saints of Jehovah who will rule with Jesus on earth. Thus the prophecies of this new era are fast emerging into fulfillment before our eyes and ears.  Well, actually it was YOU once again taking quotes out of context and pretending that they support your position. Sons and children can be made, and are made throughout the Bible. Once again you also misrepresent the Bible by making claims without referring to Chapter and Verse. If you do that we can have yet another thread where we actually examine your quote mined passages and see if they are as invalid as all your claimed prophecy. And no, you have NEVER shown that any prophecies have or are being fulfilled yet continue to make that same false assertion. There is no support for original sin or original guilt to be found in the Old Testament and the concept of being Born Again was seen as continuing and ongoing task throughout out life in the Old Testament.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by Buzsaw, posted 02-19-2011 3:39 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 14 by Jon, posted 02-19-2011 4:43 PM | | jar has replied | | | Message 222 by Buzsaw, posted 05-06-2011 9:01 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 15 of 388 (605438)
02-19-2011 4:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 14 by Jon
02-19-2011 4:43 PM
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Re: Origins of an Idea
Jon writes: ... the concept of being Born Again was seen as continuing and ongoing task throughout out life in the Old Testament. And I don't see how Jesus' lesson to Nicodemus is meant to describe some sort of one-time, instant replacement for that ongoing process that can be accomplished with a few dances and a profession of belief. Unless I'm missing something... If you look for example at the tradition of Baptism as found within the polemic it involved repenting of past sins. It is a continuation of the Jewish position that each year, each day, is a new beginning, a rebirth. The modern concept as so often marketed though is an easy sell, perhaps the best product invented since "getting Saved".
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by Jon, posted 02-19-2011 4:43 PM | | Jon has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 22 of 388 (611638)
04-09-2011 4:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
04-09-2011 4:46 PM
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Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Phat writes: However I feel that I am not having the inner transforming change that being born again involves. GOOD! Great. That "inner transforming change that being born again involves" is nothing but a feel good excuse to not do anything, less than you could get from some good LSD or getting laid. Born again is simply understanding what you did wrong, trying to make amend, and then trying not to do that again.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 4:46 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 24 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 5:22 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 25 of 388 (611645)
04-09-2011 5:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
04-09-2011 5:22 PM
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Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Phat writes: jar writes: Born again is simply understanding what you did wrong, trying to make amend, and then trying not to do that again. What part does God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit play in all of this? They can encourage you to change, gave you a brain and senses, presented lessons that were gathered into the stories in the Bible (have you read that yet? ), parents that taught you and provided examples, teachers and mentors and the charge to do. But it is up to you to do.
Phat writes: Why did Jesus want us to follow Him? It seems easy for Gods Son to live the life of a homeless teacher. Its a bit like a son of wealthy parents deciding to hitchhike around the country following Phish. The idea that God expects me to be loving and generous and yet gives me no power to do so leaves me asking someone...anyone...for advice. I simply dont feel inspired. God did give you the power, and the great gift outlined in Genesis 2&3 where we gained the capability to know good from evil. Inspiration is irrelevant. The reason is that we are our brothers keeper and are charged to try to make the world a little better.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 5:22 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Hyroglyphx writes:
I remember well the incredible exhaustion of never being good enough for God and tormenting yourself trying to appease a standard that could never be met, and the dissonance it caused. I think after some honest introspection, you'll realize how miserable following God's unrealistic goals are making you. I don't mean this to condescend you, I'm just expressing that I've been here before with that constant agony and intangible pang in the heart for not being able to measure up. My earnest suggestion is to stop torturing yourself and let go. I think there are several problems there, first the idea of being good enough for God, as if God really cared. But I also think the idea of "Let go" is just a cop out, a way to get out of doing what we are charged to do. I blame most of that on the Christian Cult of Ignorance and their marketing campaign. I'll admit that what they teach, what Mike-the-Wiz is marketing here, is an easy sell and very, very profitable for the snake oil salesmen, but it is little more than easy sell with no product liability risks.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-10-2011 6:43 PM | | Hyroglyphx has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
MTW writes: Are you saying to pray to God, to seek answers from God, is not right? Ask and you shall receive. For the Gospels tell us we can ask anything in accordance with His will. Is this snake oil? Yup, snake-oil but I'll admit, it isd packaged in a pretty bottle and very profitable for them that are selling it. If you ask God, the only thing you should ask is "What should I do?"
MTW writes: If you judge me to sell "snake oil", then you say my works are false, despite not even knowing me. Too funny. You post your product Mike, I don't judge you I judge the product you try to market.
MTW writes: Let go of what? Who said, "let go?" What are "we" charged to do, and by whom? Allah, Buddha? Should I do as Allah says or Christ? Should I seek Jihad? What are "we" charged to do? Who is "we"? A popular saying among the Christian Cult of Ignorance is "Let go and Let God" but I was replying to a post where "Let go" was suggested. And there is no difference between Allah and Christ so that is irrelevant. We are charged to try to do for others; to do and not profess. Acts speak. We is each and every Christian.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
mike the wiz writes: I think there are several problems there, first the idea of being good enough for God, as if God really cared I think the problem is that you over-value what you think rather than what God thinks, according to scripture. We don't care what you think God thinks, only what He tells us He thinks, in the word. God cares about righteousness in scripture, and hates sin. The problem that seperates us from God, is sin. Nobody can e good enough. Christ, our righteousness, according to the NT, has imputed to us righteousness, so that God does not condemn us. When we are born again, we receive the new nature. This gives us the potential to not walk in our old ways. It's about understanding it EXACTLY the way it was described by the expert the apostle Paul. Word salad, a nice Carny spiel and a cheap easy cop out. The "Born Again" you are marketing is worthless.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 42 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 7:54 PM | | jar has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Please stop misrepresenting what I say or provide links to where I mention "where the pink unicorn died on the cross and where Jar tells us who is going to heaven." Please provide a link to where I ever asked anyone to "... read the Gospel of Jar and believed?" Please provide a link to where I judged you or judged you to be false. And yes MTW, the product I try to sell is NOT desirable, not an easy sell, where there is some "Born again" moment where you suddenly get changed, where there is any assurance that you will be saved.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
mike the wiz writes: Again - that "born-again" was not stated to be a moment, or an easy cop out. For me personally, it took years, I did not know I was born again because of false teachings such as Allah being the same as Christ. But you didn't ask me for that information, you just jumped to a conclusion. No, I went by what you post, and the fact that you think it happened simply confirms my opinions.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Hyroglyphx writes: jar writes: But I also think the idea of "Let go" is just a cop out, a way to get out of doing what we are charged to do. And what are we charged to do? Speaking as a Christian I believe I am charged to do for others as I would like others to do for me. That doesn't mean give everything away, it means bringing in the trash can for the elderly couple that lives next door, getting the package down off the shelf the other person can't reach, squat down when talking to children so you are at their eye level, letting the mother with the passel of kids go ahead of you in line, holding the door open for someone whose arms are full. But addressing the topic, being Born Again is done every day, every moment. It is what YOU do not something that happens to you; it is recognizing and acknowledging when you screw up, being sorry about it, trying to make amends and trying to not screw up the same way in the future. Being Born Again is a never ending process, never finished, never complete.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-10-2011 7:57 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
I have not said anything about you mike, claiming I have is really silly unless you can point to where it was said.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 8:05 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Respect must be earned.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 56 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 8:21 PM | | jar has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Bible study as practiced in the Christian Cult of Ignorance is pretty worthless; actually it is just silly, another example of SOURCE over CONTENT. It is simply an exercise in quote mining and taking stuff out of context. The fact that you can make a little list is a great example of just that. Receiving the "Holy Spirit" is yet another snake oil product. It's up to us to change us, not to expect God to do it for us. God already gave us all the tools needed, and change is not something that happens one time, it is a continuing, never ending process. It is the Great Gift described in Genesis 2&3 (the Christian Cult of Ignorance calls it 'The Fall' and pretends it was not a gift and a charge) when we were given the tools to know good from evil. Nor have I "judged you or said personal things about your character"; so unless you can link to where I did then please stop making such claims.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 8:16 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Rejection Of The New Birth
Paul was a fanatic, but he also evolved over time. He doesn't even touch on the Gospel really, and was far more involved in talking about the mechanics of building the new thing called Christianity and on daily life. Paul had much to say that was worthwhile but you need to take his letters as complete but separate units and not just pull a line here and a line there. He was wrong about lots of things, but also right on many. I'd say the author of the John's Gospel was far more the revisionist.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-10-2011 8:20 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 82 of 388 (614025)
04-30-2011 7:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
04-30-2011 6:36 PM
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Re: Origins of an Idea
Not only did jaywill fail to address the question, his rant was filled with examples of the classic carny con tactic of trying to misdirect attention by taking verses out of context in the hope that no one will notice that there is actually no support for the Christianity he tries to market. The "Born again" "I been born again, regenerated, purified and cleansed in Christ's redemption" and so "I can be trusted to tell you what the words that were actually written really mean" seems little but the carny barkers shpiel.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by ringo, posted 04-30-2011 6:36 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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