Born Again

But it is possible to come to the words of Jesus but NOT come to Jesus. As it is possible to come to the words of God but not come to God.Jesus told the Pharisees: "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that testify concerning Me. Yet you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (John 5:39) If you believe Jesus is dead and gone, it is of no use for you to internalize the words of Jesus. You come to the Scripture but you will not come to Jesus Christ for life.And the passage I quoted to you says that I should live by Jesus AS he lived by the Father.Jesus did not say that He only internalized the words of the Father. He said it was the Father in Him who did the works and spoke the words: "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works." (John 14:10)If the living of the Christian should be that I live by Jesus as Jesus lived by the Father, it is not just because of the words of Jesus I live.Rather I live because Jesus lives in me.Jesus taught that He and His Father would come and make an abode in the one who loves Him, not simply they should remember His words: "Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23) I agree that eating is repetitive. John 6:37 is not about being born again but by living by the Son as the Son lived by the Father.Either way, your reducing eating Jesus to the words of Jesus is your humanistic spin. Jesus meant to eat HIM, to take HIM in.If you do not believe that Christ is Son of God and is resurrected from the dead, you do not eat Christ. I don't care if you have the whole Bible memorized from cover to cover.And if you reject that Son of God as the Lord, I don't care if you can verbatim recite every line spoken by Jesus in the New Testament and who you feed. Your humanistic good works will not win you browny points when you come before a perfect God and holy God in whom there is no moral darkness at all.You have proven that you do not want me to live as Jesus taught.Now, further back you said something like, Jesus did not set Himself as a perfect example of what He taught.Really ? This is what Jesus said to His opponents: "Which of you convicts Me of sin? " (John 8:47) Please indicate where the Son of God indicated that He fell short in doing the will of His Father.He says "And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him." (John 8:29) Did you hear that? "I ALWAYS ... do the things that are pleasing to Him."Please show me the passage where Jesus Christ confesses that in this or that matter He did not do the thing pleasing to the Father.Yes, He is a PERFECT example of what He taught. And because He was a PERFECT One He qualified to die a redemptive death for the rest of mankind who has fallen far, far, FAR short of the righteousness of God and the glory of God.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I did not use the terms universal or local calender.I have heard that there was a civil calender and a sacred calender. That is the sacred calender would have had the time of the Exodus be in the FIRST month. "This month will be the beginning of months for you; it shall be the first of the months of the year to you." (Exodus 12:2) My understanding is that there was a keeping of the months before that time. So then the Exodus would have introduced a new calender.I believe that what was conveyed to me was that there was a civil calender and a sacred calender which came about at the time of the Exodus.

There was only one calendar in use, but there are actually four different New Year days in the Hebrew calendar. Rosh Hashanah (The New Year) is the first and second day of Tishri, and Yom Kippur the tenth day. The period between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are set aside for Hebrews (like Jesus) to review their behavior during the previous year, honestly evaluate it, repent of mistakes (like Jesus snapping back and disrespecting his mother), acknowledge failing, try to make amends to those who you might have offended and to commit to try to do better in the future, to be Born Again.Understanding that there were only local calendars and NO universal calendars is important to understanding the writings of the period. There were several very serious problems. First, communications between settlements was slow. Second, the calendar was a lunar calendar and also tied to things that varied based on location, things like sunrise and sunset. Remember that "rites" played a very important role, for example, when to light the candles, when the various feasts would begin and end, and thus had to be calculated locally.Exodus actually plays a part in three of the major mandatory feasts, but not in the calendar. Rosh Hoshannah for example was often equated the creation day of the world (or maybe man).

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

You mean John 5:39.If you look at verse 35, Jesus says of John, "He was the lamp that burneth and shineth...." That's a metaphor. Jesus also refered to Himself metaphorically as the "word of God" but He made it clear that it was the same words that Moses had already written:

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Joh 5:45 Think not that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, on whom ye have set your hope.
Joh 5:46 For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me.

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He equated believing Moses with believing Him. As I've been saying all along, the Jews had all the theoretical knowledge they needed. They just weren't living it. You mean verse 46.In that passage, He didn't claim to be a perfect example. He spoke again about the "words of God", which if you remember, were also written by Moses. How can you quote that and still completely miss what He said there? He didn't say that He never did anything displeasing. He said that He was constantly doing, repetitively doing. It was by continuously doing that He pleased God.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

Jesus as always draws on the story of the Jews in the Hebrew Scriptures as the source of the message He was bringing to the Jews and through them to the world.The whole concept of being born again, or put another way, to have renewed hearts draws directly from the earlier scriptures.In 2nd Samuel 14:14 we can see that God does not desire death but desires that through whatever means that we will not be separated from Him.

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Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him.

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God is a God that desires redemption for all of us.In Jeremiah 31:33 the Israelites are told that the time will come when the law will not just be the Torah, but will actually be written on their hearts and become part of them.

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"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

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In Ezekiel, Chap 36:26-7 we are again told that we will have a new heart and a new spirit.

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26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

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I think that to be born again means that we have a heart that chooses unselfish love over selfish love. That isn’t to say that anyone does it perfectly or even comes close. God wants us to have a heart that rejoices at the good fortune of others and mourns the sorrow of others. He wants us to have hearts that want to respond in the way that Christ responded on the cross.Paul puts it this way in Galatians 5:24

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24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

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The idea being that we put to death the love of the self so that we are open to the role God wants for us in the world which is to be reflectors of His love into it. I believe that is what Jesus means when he says we are to be born againI know I’m late getting into this thread but that is my take on it.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Thank you, GDR, for your informative take on the matter! I do have a couple of questions for clarity, though, if you don't mind:What kind of life changes do you feel are a part of being 'born again'? Do you believe these changes to be a one-time deal, or are they ongoing?Does being 'born again' require continuous work, or can it be accomplished in a single afternoon of prayers, chanting, and falling over?JonEdited by Jon, : clarity

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Love your enemies!

I see it as a process. It is an openness to having a change of mindset. We gain an awareness of how we automatically think of how events affect us and we are become aware that there is a more unselfish way to live. That awareness should, if we really have given our heart over to a loving God, continue to increase over time.I'd been a Christian for 25 years or so when some close friends ran into trouble with in him out of work and their teenage son on drugs making life miserable. One day it just hit me as to how much of the time I spent fretting about my comparatively miniscule problems and how little time I spent praying about or doing something concrete about my friends problems. It seems to be all about me but with God's help over time hopefully it will be less and less about me and more about others.As I've said in other thread being a Christian doesn't make me less selfish than my atheistic next door neighbour but it should be me less selfish than I had been before. It's a never ending process in my view that has to start at some point in time IMHO. Personally I don't think we even realize when that moment is but at some point we notice that there is something different about ourselves. I imagine it's different for everybody.This is how I see it anyway, rightly or wrongly.Edited by GDR, : Wanted to add something

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Since the Son of God taught " ... you must be born again" it is something you should be certain of as having taken place. You say you "try" to be born again. While your expression may be admirable in Judiasm this is not the "born again" that Christ was teaching.The "born again" that Christ was teaching is not our doing, our trying, our self improvement, our "trying to do better" or our "making another go at it."It is really not about our work or our faithfulness. It is about our believing and God's faithfulness to resurrect the dead innermost kernel of a man's being - the human spirit - "... and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).The Apostle John emphasis recieving Jesus Christ to be begotten of God. And he is emphatic that the begetting IS of God. This is God's faithfulness to beget the believer and become that one's begetting "Father."If you told your earthly father that you are going to certainly try to be his child again, how do you think he would react. "Sir, I wasn't your child for a long time last year. This year I am going to give it more serious effort. I am going to re-dedicate myself and try to be your child. Especially, for a few weeks I am going to really try to be your child." I am pretty sure your dad would find this strange. You being his child is a done deal. It is a finished event. He already begot you as his child.Now let's look at it from the other extreme. Suppose you stole something from your father or otherwise behaved badly so as to embaress your father's family name.Now suppose someone said "Don't worry about your morality. Don't worry about stealing or lying. As long as you're your dad's child it doesn't matter if you behave poorly. All he wants is for you to be alive."Within I am sure you would think, "Wait this doesn't sound right that I should just be alive as my father's child and not be concerned that I do not displease or disgrace the family name."The sober mind should be able to avoid either of these two extremes:1.) Behavior is not determining whether I have my father's life. I did not behave to be begotten by my father.2.) Just being begotten by my father was not his sole purpose. He did not beget me and turn me loose to the world without training, learning, and the knowledge of maturing into a adult worthy of his family name.We should not create a false dichotomy with being "born again" as Christ taught in John 3.I realize that your interest is not with the Gospel of John, or is so ONLY as it alludes to teachings already defined in Judaism.I realize that you would probably protest that "born again" is not the property of the New Testament.However, John (a typical Jewish adherent to the Jewish religion and culture of that age) intends to draw a contrast between the ministry of Moses the prophet and Law Giver and that of Jesus the Son of God. "For the law was given through Moses, grace and reality came through Jesus Christ." ( John 1:17) The law of Moses was given.
Grace and reality CAME.Moses gave the law.
Grace and reality as a Person CAME through Jesus Christ.John intends his readers to understand that the coming of Jesus Christ was not simply more of the same experience which was given through the law giving of Moses. The enjoyment of God's indwelling was made possible through being begotten of the Father through Jesus Christ. "For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses, grace and reality came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:16,17) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The Gospel of John draws a crystal clear distinction between what was given through Moses and what came through Jesus. "For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17) No, the coming of Jesus was not more of the same as what Moses taught.And Jesus was teaching in John 5 like Moses is the picture and He is the caption under the picture. Moses and the prophets were pointing to the coming of the Son of God to be Lord and Savior."You don't even need Me. All you need is to keep trying to do the Law of Moses" is not the New Testament. Verse 46 of chapter 8 - "Which of you convicts Me of sin?"Please indicate which one of them convicted Jesus, (rightly), of sin ? Please indicate which sin He was convicted of. False accusations which furnished the ground for His execution should not be included.Though false accusations came, Pontius Pilate could find no fault in Him whatsoever.Jesus cannot be found confessing any transgressions, sins, iniquities anywhere in the New Testament. My usage of John 8:29 was about the continuous living of Christ which was a perfect life. A perfect life is what Ringo claims Jesus never claimed for Himself.Losing ground on that point, cleverly shifts to make John 8:29 an issue about whether being born again is an event to happen once or an event to happen repeatedly. " ... I ALWAYS do the things which are pleasing to Him [the Father]" means to me that Jesus ALWAYS did the things which were pleasing to the Father. Therefore at no time did He do the things displeasing to the Father.Therefore Jesus did establish that as one living by and in the realm of God the Father, He was a PERFECT example.Notice, no reply was given to the point that Paul says we were saved NOT by works of rightouesness which we have done. "But when the kindness and love to man of our Savior God appeared,

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Not out of works in righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:4,5) We who are saved in Jesus Christ were not eternally saved because of works of righteousness which we did.That is not to say that works of righteousness which the Christian does are not desired by God. That is to say that in Titus 3:3,4 the Christian is not eternally saved because of works of righteousness which he did.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Sorry Charlie, but if that is Jesus message then it ain't a message even worth hearing.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Its your loss, not mine.

Where in the OT does it speak of a new birth from above, i.e. spiritual birth for individuals? We're not talking about natural birth or physical creation, nor are we talking about nations. The Jews were the children of Israel, the messianic nation of Jehovah, not spiritually born individuals. Really? So where are your chapters and verses about the above, i.e. sons and children being made throughout the OT? Romans 5:8-19 ASV

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But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

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9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.

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10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;

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11 and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

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12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--

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13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

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14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

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15 But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.

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16 And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses unto justification.

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17 For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ.

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18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.

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19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.

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Edited by Buzsaw, : Quote fix

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

We have been down this path before.Sorry Charlie but I can find no Biblical support for Paul's assertions in that passage.Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

You've never addressed the passages colored in gold. Until you do that, the OT doctrine of original sin stands.God told Adam that the day he eats of the tree he would die. Adam lived hundreds of years after he ate but died spiritually, being separated from God spiritually. According to my colored in passages in the NT, that original sin of Adam passed on all of his descendents.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

I am going to stick with the subject of Born Again.In John chapter 3 there is a comparison between being born naturally and being born spiritually.The argument here is whether born anew; born again is spoken by Jesus as a one time event or an ongoing process.It has been said that to discribe being born again as a one time event is to devalue it, or trivialize it. Not true at all.Nicodemus understood enough to know that what Jesus was saying was about a one time event. He says he cannot go into his mother's womb to REPEAT that event.Had Nicodemus taken Jesus as meaning an ongoing process he would have said something like he (Nicodemus) is still BEING born from his mother's womb. He knows that his coming out of his mother's womb is a done matter. How can he, as an old man, REPEAT that matter?Nicodemus does not say that he as an old man is still BEING BORN the first time. He as an old man has ALREADY completed the event of being BORN.Jesus, corrects Nicodemus not in the matter in which Ringo suggests with his continous Humanistic being repeatedly born again and again and again every day. Jesus corrects him in the nature of the event. It is not to be born of the flesh as Nicodemus was when he came out of his mother's womb. Rather it is to be born anew in his human spirit by the Spirit of God.The event is the beginning of a new life just as the event of coming out of his mother's womb was the beginning of his natural life.