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Author | Topic: Was Christ a communist? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CTD Member (Idle past 5899 days) Posts: 253 Joined: |
Are you kidding? The concept of self is part of being an individual. Unless you want to be part of a "hive mind" or Borg collective, you're stuck with it. Even then, if there was another "hive mind", those who belonged to it would be "others".
Or would you twist "self" into "selfishness"? Greed isn't what God's about, and I think we all know that.
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4089 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
Are you kidding? The concept of self is part of being an individual. Unless you want to be part of a "hive mind" or Borg collective, you're stuck with it. The concept of self may be part of being an individual, but you're applying it in a way that is not accurate concerning individuals. In a tribal setting, there is a definite "we" mentality. You can call it a Borg collective if you want, because it wouldn't be totally inaccurate. It affects us even in big, individualistic countries like this one. There's still an "us vs. them" mentality that is part of our makeup. Our culture strongly influences our sense of right and wrong. It's unavoidable, because we're made that way. Thus, despite the concept of self, individuals in tribal settings would definitely be prone to at least some sort of communism, because group ownership and individual ownership get very mixed in that setting, even in each individual's brain. And when I say tribal, even small towns can be like that.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
CTD writes: I always thought it was self-evident that God invented private property. Actually, I think it was the Americans who invented the modern concept of "private property". For most of human history, the rich have owned all the private property and the poor have owned nothing. That's the situation that Jesus was trying to alleviate and that Marx was trying to overthrow. It wasn't until the American Dream was dreamt that the concept of everybody having private property became widespread. In a sense, the American ideal of every-man-a-capitalist is more communist than "Communism". Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4089 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
In a sense, the American ideal of every-man-a-capitalist is more communist than "Communism". I probably won't be able to check this board until Monday, but I have to ask why you think this. I must be missing something, because I didn't get this from your post. Can you explain this thought?
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
I just meant that the American Dream has a levelling quality to it - "from each according to his abilities to each according to his need" in terms of oppurtunity if not outcome. Everybody has the oppurtunity to achieve, regardless of his starting place.
(To paraphrase Homer Simpson: If you're going to pick up on every stupid thing I say, I guess I'll just have to stop saying stupid things." ) Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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CTD Member (Idle past 5899 days) Posts: 253 Joined: |
Anyone care to wander into a bear's cave and ask for an opinion on communism? I expect the bear'd be fairly opinionated, and I have a hunch there have never been too many Marxist bears, even in Russia.
I'm not aware of any languages that lack words for 'my', her', 'your', and so on, so these don't seem to be very new concepts. Maybe "modern" implies something special, and I'm just not seeing it. Looks like I'm stirring up some people who seem to agree with my ultimate answer. I'll attribute this to my use of the term 'self-evident' for now. Anyhow, my answer's still a confident 'no'. And truthlover, you're confusing me. Do families have trouble keeping track of which dress belongs to the mother? Have they ever? Best I know, people have always had private property, if only the clothes on their backs. Nobody's ever come close to the "communist ideal", and I think if Jesus had such a thing in mind He wouldn't've been shy about it.
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truthlover Member (Idle past 4089 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
Nobody's ever come close to the "communist ideal" I guess that depends on your definition of the communist ideal, and on what size a group you're talking about. I'm picturing tribal living, for example, where food varies in its sharing, but the land belongs to the tribe.
I expect the bear'd be fairly opinionated Bears don't survive by living in groups, but a lot of other species, including homo sapiens, since that's the species at question. You might try referencing wolves rather than bears as a much better example.
Looks like I'm stirring up some people who seem to agree with my ultimate answer. I must have missed your ultimate answer, because I don't know what that is. I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe you said something earlier I didn't see. What's your ultimate answer?
I think if Jesus had such a thing in mind He wouldn't've been shy about it. I think the discussion is about whether he was shy about it and to what extent he was recommending communism. He did tell people to sell all they have and give to the poor, and he did tell them not to worry about what they would wear or eat. That's hardly the American dream. In fact, in his story about the man who was achieving the American dream, becoming rich enough to retire at a young age, he called that man a fool.
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CTD Member (Idle past 5899 days) Posts: 253 Joined: |
I guess that depends on your definition of the communist ideal, and on what size a group you're talking about. I'm picturing tribal living, for example, where food varies in its sharing, but the land belongs to the tribe. Communism generally seeks to eliminate private property. I think it would require a fairly watered-down version of communism if most tribal communities are to qualify.
...What's your ultimate answer? No, Christ is not a communist, and He never has been. But I've arrived a tad late, and the discussion looks nearly over.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
quote: American Christians (at least the CCoI ones) are quite anti communist. Personally, I am all for global equality, as long as I can still enjoy the standard of living I now have and as long as I am not actually in poverty.
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Jon Inactive Member |
You must remember the setting for what Jesus was saying. His advice is meant to be religious; he is not laying out new social rules. The end of the world as we know it is coming, says Jesus, and you better be on the side of the good when it gets here!
Jesus' advice is wonderful as a means of running a fair society; but that is not the intention he put behind it. Doing good, for Jesus, is not about making the world a better place; it is about buying your ticket to salvation when the judgement comes. Jon Love your enemies!
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Jesus lived in poverty and advocated an austere lifestyle. I agree that that doesn't necessarily make Him a communist. I think the real question is: Was Jesus' message, "Sell what you have and give to the poor," meant to be universal? If everybody sells what they have, who do they sell it to? It seems to me that He wasn't saying, "Don't be rich." He was saying, "Don't be too rich."He was advocating redistribution of wealth, not equality of wealth. The redistribution of wealth is or will be destined to become a controversial topic among Christians, both globally and domestically. I see nowhere that Jesus advocates that we become venture capitalists, so that we can give to the kingdom and write it off on our taxes. That being said, I dont think that I should have to pay higher taxes and give more to the poor if I myself feel myself becoming poor also. Jesus and I should have a little talk...I feel that I am not a worthy Christian.
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Jon Inactive Member |
That being said, I dont think that I should have to pay higher taxes and give more to the poor if I myself feel myself becoming poor also. Everyone who has to pay out money feels like they are becoming poor. If that were an excuse to avoid paying a fair share, well... Jon Love your enemies!
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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That being said, I dont think that I should have to pay higher taxes and give more to the poor if I myself feel myself becoming poor also. Jesus and I should have a little talk...I feel that I am not a worthy Christian. It all depends on whether you have faith in God. The real test of faith is not how much you profess belief, vain professions of faith are worthless. If you had faith that Christ was/is God you would not care about your personal wealth since you would have faith God would make sure you were sufficiently provided for. As a Biblical reference see Matthew 6. I wouldn't worry about it too much though, many people profess to have a deep faith in God who actually don't trust him at all.
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Jon Inactive Member |
I wouldn't worry about it too much though, many people profess to have a deep faith in God who actually don't trust him at all. Well, I believe in GOD, but I would never rely on GOD to provide me with what I wanted/needed for survival even though I believe that GOD is the only one who can provide those things. But I think that seems reasonable. There is nothing wrong with letting reality trump belief.
The real test of faith is not how much you profess belief, vain professions of faith are worthless. If you had faith that Christ was/is God you would not care about your personal wealth since you would have faith God would make sure you were sufficiently provided for. As a Biblical reference see Matthew 6. Does this speak to Christ being a communist, though? Communism is a societal/political ideology which seeks, in part, to make life better and sustainable to everyone with a fairly equal standard of living for individualsinstead of the averagely high standard of living provided by capitalism. I do not think that Jesus was a communist; his teachings are purely religious and have nothing to do with politics or society. I would dare say that his teachings are actually rather selfish. From the chapter you referenced:
quote: Jesus doesn't advocate a fair and equal society so much as he does a way into the Kingdom. In fact, in Matthew, I think that message is extremely clear (cf. 25:31—46). Selling all your possessions and giving the money to the poor may be a good way to please God (19:1—22), but it is not meant to instruct folk wishing to create the ideal society. Jon Love your enemies!
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Well, I believe in GOD, but I would never rely on GOD to provide me with what I wanted/needed for survival even though I believe that GOD is the only one who can provide those things. Then you believe God exists, but you don't believe in God (ie., you don't have faith in god, only his existence).
But I think that seems reasonable. There is nothing wrong with letting reality trump belief. But if you believe God exists in reality, and you trust that he will look after you in reality - you wouldn't need to rationalise this way. It is evidence of your lack of faith.
Does this speak to Christ being a communist, though? Communism is a societal/political ideology which seeks, in part, to make life better and sustainable to everyone with a fairly equal standard of living for individualsinstead of the averagely high standard of living provided by capitalism. Jesus didn't speak of workers controlling the means of production or anything that's for sure. As far as society goes he did seem to be 'give what you can, take only what you need' which is similar to the communist idea, but isn't communism itself, no.
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