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Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
shadow71 writes: I would suggest you e-mail Shapiro and ask him what you want. He was very prompt in answering my e-mail and molbiogirls e-mails. He, I am sure, would answer any questions you have. I suppose I could do that, but I'm not sure I need to yet. "Purifying selection" is not some random term that Shapiro coined. The term has a standard meaning. You can look it up on Wikipedia or find it defined in scientist papers. From
Widespread purifying selection at polymorphic sites in human protein-coding loci, Austin L. Hughes et alia. Widespread purifying selection at polymorphic sites in human protein-coding loci - PMC
quote: From Wikipedia Negative selection - Wikipedia(natural_selection)
quote: Wouldn't Shapiro have defined "purifying selection" if he was not using the term in its ordinary sense?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Shadow71,
Can you indicate, in your own words, how this paper supports your argument? I could make some guesses about the Ho paper, but this Badyaev paper covers a lot of ground.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
You seem to have a gross conceptual error regarding selection.
shadow71 writes: What appears to be happening here is that beneficial, deleterious, and neutral mutations occur in a specific locus. Then somehow only the beneficial mutations are selected.How this selection works is what is important, not what you call it. How can you know the selection is "natural"? and how do you define natural? Only the beneficial mutations are selected for what? You seem to believe that selection is something that occurs before the mutations are passed on to offspring. Am I reading you correctly? That is not what Shapiro or Wright present in their papers. Shapiro says that selection (i.e. purifying selection, or negative selection) happens due to competition for resources in a new ecology. That's clearly selection after creating/conceiving a new entity with a non-random mutation.
shadow71 writes: Is selection random?, if it is random how did it occur that only the beneficial mutations were selected, and if it is non-random then isn't it directed in some way? I would think the answer to your question, as presented in Shapiro's paper ought to be obvious given the above, and an understanding of what natural selection means.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Shadow71, I hope you will molbiogirl's questions. But I did want to summarize my understanding.
My own understanding is that the only thing presented so far that purports to explain evolution without natural selection is Ho's talk. Shapiro and Wright discuss non-random mutations acted on by natural selection. Cairns' Origin of mutants has been self refuted, and Zheng's paper was actually damaging to s71s cause. Non-random mutations plus natural selection, in my opinion, don't get us away from evolution as Darwin understood it. There are some other papers, but their relevance is still under discussion. (Ho, and Badyaev) What concerns me is that you do not seem to know what natural selection is, and cannot seem to recognize selection when scientist mention it in their papers. Yet, that's pretty much the portion of modern theory that Darwin did have a handle on in Origin of Species. How can a discussion of modifications to the current theory be meaningful without knowing what the current theory is? Also, it is helpful when you sprinkle some of your own commentary in between quotes from the papers when you present them. You do this sometimes, but not often enough.
and "macro evolution" directs the changes per Shapiro and Ho's theories. I have no idea what this sentence means. At some point, we need to agree on what definition of directed you are insisting on, so that we can meaningfully discuss it. In some sense, natural selection directs evolution.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
jar writes: I think it might be worthwhile to point out that micro and macro are really just human labels. All change is micro as it happens Of course all terms are mere labels. Shapiro uses the term macro-evolution to refer to evolution by a different mechanism than that used for micro-evolution. On the other hand, in discussions here, we have typically used the term macroevolution to refer to an accumulated microevolution. Creationists have sometimes insisted that such accumulation is somehow limited from producing new kinds. I'm not sure which definition of macroevolution is the "correct" one, but I believe at least a couple authors cited in this discussion have used definitions similar to Shapiro's.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
jar writes: I'm still not sure what would make one mechanism "macro" as opposed to "micro" though, and so far I cannot find anything at least in this thread, that explains just what is so different. Shapiro speculates that macroevolution is ecological stress driven mutation mechanisms that generate complex structures. Microevolution is a slower mechanism that uses random mutations. Shadow71 has quoted sections of Shapiro's work using these definitions.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
jar writes: What keeps micro evolution from creating complex structures. Perhaps I have overstated a bit. Shapiro's idea is that stress invokes mechanisms that are targeted at locations that will produce novel complex structures, while random mutation have a much lower likelihood of doing so. Shapiro discusses such might be the case. In any event, Shapiro describes that under stress there is a higher mutation rate, and higher likelihood of a mutation affecting a relevant biological function. When the stress is relieve, strictly random mutations at a lower rate occur. You'll have to read the paper to see if you believe that Shapiro is convincing. Wright describes some similar effects and some evidence. I don't recall if she uses the terms micro/macroevolution I'm not defending either paper, but I don't call it word salad. If nothing else, macroevolution differs by using mutations that are responsive to stress (in frequency and/or location) and working faster than microevolution through strictly random mutation. And yes some evidence is cited. Shapiro's paper has a combination of speculation and some evidence. You'll have to judge credibility for yourself. I'm not a biologist, but I don't think the "word salad" criticism is justified.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
shadow71 writes: molbiogirl writes:
Care to show me the "many" papers on epigenetics? Here is her cv. with most of her books, reviewed papers and Textbook contributions and other writings. Shadow71, this is ridiculous. How much of this data dump is actually relevant to this discussion. Most of this stuff is clearly not epigenetics related. We're not doing discovery here.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
shadow71 writes: papers by Massimo Pigliucci I'd never heard of the guy, but there are some videos on youtube with Pigliucci debating Kent Hovind and Robert Allen. Massimo handles himself pretty well.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
shadow71 writes: Pigliucci cannot use those terms because he is an Atheist dedicated to the BELIEF not scientific fact that evolution cannot be planned.Shapiro has the intestinal fortitude to say what his research reveals, not what the protectors of the MS say you must say. Yet you don't even know what natural selection is. Shapiro talks about the role of negative selection on genetic engineering produced changes and his words won't enter your head. We know you are motivated reader who does not understand biology particularly well. You've been caught in any number of interpretation errors when reading these papers, all in favor of your own position. So why would anyone accept your reading of Pigliucci paper over Pigliucci's own interpretation?
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