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Author | Topic: Prophecy vs Free will | |||||||||||||||||||||||
IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
I think I zoomed into the core issue of your premise, without disagreeing with your post.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Determinism, that one can change a dead end situation, and free will which seeks to do what it pleases, both have the issue of the law to contend with. I say this also applies to prophesy - it cannot conradict the source it relies upon.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Yes they do: we find that the names and events are aligned with relics and artifacts and specific verses. If the book of kings lists a war in king David's time, and we find the Tel Dan find shows a monolit 100 years after king David describing that war - it is proof of that 3,200 year writings; authorship is listed and can only be proven by its surrounding proofs. If we have the book of Exodus listing a war of the Hebrews with Egypt, and find a stone monolith dated 3,500 years old listing a war of Egypt with Israel - the authorship of the book is considered reliable. At least there are some hard copy proofs here and of a period almost twice as old as the NT.
quote: Produce one single example.
quote: I already did. How is walking on water conducive to a prophet freeing his people from paganism, invasion and brutality?
quote: Paul was also thrown out by the Nazerites - the earliest followers of Jesus. Paul never met Jesus and was a 4th generation secular Greek who is hardly a reasonable figure to refer to.
quote: Clearly, he was wrong. The Jews have beaten Christians in every faculty, including on their own home ground and while under extreme oppression. When will Christans really get on a higher plane at the Nobels, money lending and controlling all the banks? Here are some European Christians dispelling Paul, at least that Christians are not on such a higher plane after all: "If there is any honor in all the world that I should like, it would be to be an honorary Jewish citizen." --A.L Rowse, authority on Shakespeare Some people like the Jews, and some do not. But no thoughtful man can deny the fact that they are, beyond any question, the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has appeared in the world." -- Winston Churchill "The Jew is that sacred being who has brought down from heaven the everlasting fire, and has illumined with it the entire world. He is the religious source, spring, and fountain out of which all the rest of the peoples have drawn their beliefs and their religions." --Leo Tolstoy "It was in vain that we locked them up for several hundred years behind the walls of the Ghetto. No sooner were their prison gates unbarred than they easily caught up with us, even on those paths which we opened up without their aid." --A. A. Leroy Beaulieu, French publicist, 1842 "The Jew gave us the Outside and the Inside - our outlook and our inner life. We can hardly get up in the morning or cross the street without being Jewish. We dream Jewish dreams and hope Jewish hopes. Most of our best words, in fact - new, adventure, surprise, unique, individual, person, vocation, time, history, future, freedom, progress, spirit, faith, hope, justice - are the gifts of the Jews." --Thomas Cahill, Irish Author "One of the gifts of the Jewish culture to Christianity is that it has taught Christians to think like Jews, and any modern man who has not learned to think as though he were a Jew can hardly be said to have learned to think at all." --William Rees-Mogg, former Editor-in-Chief for The Times of London and a member of the House of Lords "It is certain that in certain parts of the world we can see a peculiar people, separated from the other peoples of the world and this is called the Jewish people.... This people is not only of remarkable antiquity but has also lasted for a singular long time... For whereas the people of Greece and Italy, of Sparta, Athens and Rome and others who came so much later have perished so long ago, these still exist, despite the efforts of so many powerful kings who have tried a hundred times to wipe them out, as their historians testify, and as can easily be judged by the natural order of things over such a long spell of years. They have always been preserved, however, and their preservation was foretold... My encounter with this people amazes me..." --Blaise Pascal, French Mathematician "The Jewish vision became the prototype for many similar grand designs for humanity, both divine and man made The Jews, therefore, stand at the center of the perennial attempt to give human life the dignity of a purpose." --Paul Johnson, American Historian "As long as the world lasts, all who want to make progress in righteousness will come to Israel for inspiration as to the people who had the sense for righteousness most glowing and strongest." --Matthew Arnold, British poet and critic "Indeed it is difficult for all other nations of the world to live in the presence of the Jews. It is irritating and most uncomfortable. The Jews embarrass the world as they have done things which are beyond the imaginable. They have become moral strangers since the day their forefather, Abraham, introduced the world to high ethical standards and to the fear of Heaven. They brought the world the Ten Commandments, which many nations prefer to defy. They violated the rules of history by staying alive, totally at odds with common sense and historical evidence. They outlived all their former enemies, including vast empires such as the Romans and the Greeks. They angered the world with their return to their homeland after 2000 years of exile and after the murder of six million of their brothers and sisters. "They aggravated mankind by building, in the wink of an eye, a democratic State which others were not able to create in even hundreds of years. They built living monuments such as the duty to be holy and the privilege to serve one's fellow men. "They had their hands in every human progressive endeavor, whether in science, medicine, psychology or any other discipline, while totally out of proportion to their actual numbers. They gave the world the Bible and even their "savior." "Jews taught the world not to accept the world as it is, but to transform it, yet only a few nations wanted to listen. Moreover, the Jews introduced the world to one God, yet only a minority wanted to draw the moral consequences. So the nations of the world realize that they would have been lost without the Jews. And while their subconscious tries to remind them of how much of Western civilization is framed in terms of concepts first articulated by the Jews, they do anything to suppress it. "They deny that Jews remind them of a higher purpose of life and the need to be honorable, and do anything to escape its consequences. It is simply too much to handle for them, too embarrassing to admit, and above all, too difficult to live by. "So the nations of the world decided once again to go out of 'their' way in order to find a stick to hit the Jews. The goal: to prove that Jews are as immoral and guilty of massacre and genocide as some of they themselves are. "All this in order to hide and justify their own failure to even protest when six million Jews were brought to the slaughterhouses of Auschwitz and Dachau; so as to wipe out the moral conscience of which the Jews remind them, and they found a stick. "Nothing could be more gratifying for them than to find the Jews in a struggle with another people (who are completely terrorized by their own leaders) against whom the Jews, against their best wishes, have to defend themselves in order to survive. With great satisfaction, the world allows and initiates the rewriting of history so as to fuel the rage of yet another people against the Jews. This in spite of the fact that the nations understand very well that peace between the parties could have come a long time ago, if only the Jews would have had a fair chance. "Instead, they happily jumped on the wagon of hate so as to justify their jealousy of the Jews and their incompetence to deal with their own moral issues. When Jews look at the bizarre play taking place in The Hague , they can only smile as this artificial game once more proves how the world paradoxically admits the Jews uniqueness. It is in their need to undermine the Jews that they actually raise them. "The study of history of Europe during the past centuries teaches us one uniform lesson: That the nations which received and in any way dealt fairly and mercifully with the Jew have prospered; and that the nations that have tortured and oppressed them have written out their own curse." --Olive Schreiner, South African novelist and social activist
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Mentioning figures like Herod, a Roman appointed ruler, without any cross-nation backing, or contemporary relics or artifacts of the NT figures, is hardly proof. It is open to gross retro doctoring. Understand that I am not attacking Christianoty, but the reverse applies. The premise Judaism is nothing unless it aligns with the NT, and all else in the Hebrew is fulfilled away, is candy coated genocide of the worst form imaginable. It attempts to negate all of Israel's heritage, history, geography and belief. I cannot imagine a more evil doctrine, and you have to imagine this being done to Christianity!
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Correct. Churchill corrupted the Balfour and cut Israel asunder for 30 barrels of oil. Churchill is speaking with a forked tongue.
quote: False. "The Lord speaks in the language of the people'; 'He understandeth the nature of man'. No subjects - no king.
quote: The law for sacrifice was given by God. Your pointing to mercy shows you are quite ignorant of the Hebrew bible: sacrifice was only allowed for accidental crimes, so mercy is not applicable here. It is hardly mercy when you boast how bad the Jews are and thus deserved all their woes. Better you admit the crimes of those you support and check their histories instead - there are none uglier. What you also don't realise is animal sacrifice was rampant throughout the ancient world and was stemmed only by the Hebrew laws. By making one specific temple the only place for sacrifice, and limiting this to accidental and thanksgiving reasons, 99.9% of sacrifices became eliminated. This considered the nature and culture of ancient people and gave them the best means to rid of a human obsession from the dawn of time. In turn, human sacrifice was forbidden for the first time - in direct contradiction of the Gospel themes. One day, Christianity and Islam will have to remove their theological racism and villifications, the only factor which can save these two religions; not for the benefit of the Jews, but this will be demanded by humanity itself. Making charges and conditions of salvation based on preferred beliefs only says they have no proof of their lies. Its racist too.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Right."Know for a surety your seed shall be in bondage." If you also apply some insight, this was said before the Jewish nation was born, to Abram, before he even had a seed. Obviously, one cannot sin before they are born, making the charge applicable to the burden of monotheism and incur the wrath of divine king nations. That is precisely what occured.
quote: LOL. Jews happen to be the only nation in the middle-east which prevailed. Please show me the verse where it says what you post! My version says they will be returned via a small remnant. You cannot write your own versions and leave out all actual prophesies.
quote: Yes: "We will never support the return of the Jews to their homeland because they rejected JC"- Pope not so Pius at the helm of Europe's holocaust. Does it mean Christianity must be taken over by Muslims because they rejected Mohammed - or does your logic only apply to Jews? quote: No such proof exsts. The earliest imprint of the Gospels is the 4th century, well after the Roman war with the Jews. That is hardly prophesy!
quote: The Roman archives of Tacitus, Apion, etc are loaded with descriptions of minute events with the Jews in Judea. Not a word about a trial by Pilate. You can also see the notorious blood libels in pre-christian Roman archives - affirming only a retrospective version of prophesy!
quote: These people do not exist. The Gospels never existed at this time. The notion of Gospels according to Mathew, affirms only someone else is writing it. We are not even told the author and it is subscribed to one without a second name. Have you seriously not wondered why we do not have a shred of Hebrew Gospels, or one of Greek of its time - even with so many alledged writers?
quote: Rome had great reason to cover its crimes- a holocaust occured in 70 CE. Its not even mentioned in the Gospels, a grotesque lie-by-omission.
quote: There is no scripture with equivalent validity. Its time that Christians and Muslims ceased being 'subject to Jews' belief systems, knock out all the thrash about Jews and raise your own beliefs as able to stand on its own. Jews are a miniscule nation, 1000's of year older and have totally different beliefs than what is subscribed to them. It is for your own good: Mighty Rome was the greatest super power in history, bigger than Christianity and Islam combined, and Rome was challenged by the smallest nation - and Rome lost this battle. Otherwise you would have been worshipping Jupiter and Zeus today. The only vindicated, provable prophey the last 2000 years is in the Hebrew bible and the dead sea scrolls. I am on the side of Christianity - but not in the mode Christians mean - that points to more disaster ahead for humanity waiting to hapen, and its got nothing to do with Jews, but only between: NO SALVATION BUT THROUGH ME. And ITS A BLESSING TO KILL THE INFIDELS. Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
Land and population is not the best criteria. The British empire had near equivalent counter empires [French, Spain, Austrian]; the Persians lost to the Greek empire. There was no counter to Rome's might for many centuries on this planet. The Brits lost to America, India and Germany. Rome's greatest war was with the smallest province, by period and human toll, 66 - 135 CE; toll of over 2.5 Million - equivalent to some 30M today.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: This subject has already been resolved: The only vindicated prophesy the last 2000 years is in a hard copy dead sea scroll dated more than 2000 years and prophesizing "YOU SHALL SURELY BE RETURNED." Check mate applies.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: The early names you mention were a pre-empire phase of Rome, while with the others, 'challenging' the Roman empire does not constitute an equivalence.
quote: I did not deny any of those; they were too far off, otherwise they would have fallen to Rome. Distance does not imply equivalence. My history is not in error: the Roman empire is universally regarded the most powerful one of its time, as well as one which had no similar equivalent opposition in any other time since then. No nation had a hope of withstanding a war with Rome; victory was inevitable.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
Mighty Roman empire, as opposed Rome, never lost any war. The 476 downfall was an internal disintergration piece by piece and revolts of a new world order approaching. Other empires like Briton never reached the zenith of Rome nor battled the same calibre warring nations such as Hanibal - they took over native peasants in comparison, like Australia and the natives of America who had not yet possessed gun powder. The previous great war empire of Greece was made redundent. I think my statement is reasonably accurate.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: It is a most valid statement which displays true vindicated prophesy. You have not given any such equivalence.
quote: This has no alignment with prophesy. All Hebrew prophets were rebelous, but in a positive way. They were tested and they challenged Gd. They never acted as thoughtless sheap, perhaps the reason they were focused on. The Israelites were correct and right for demanding proof from Moses; the Europeans were not - they just accepted the most grotesque falsehoods without demanding any proof.
quote: How could any Christian deny the error of a Pope rejecting the right of the Jews back to their own land, while also fostering their genocide in Europe? Is this not an exposure of the stuff in the Gospels?
quote: Simply put, it was not Gd but Europe who did the evil deeds.
quote: The word Christ never emerged till 174 CE. You should read further what the writing is based upon by checking the legend numbers.
quote: This entry could have been the only real reference a Jesus existed - the Hebrew being far more credible than anything from Europe. But this too is invalidated, written after the 3rd C, and the reference to Yeshu is coded writings, belonging to another period, with no aligning to the period Christianity refers to.
quote: No it does not. The Babylonian Talmud was written in Babylon by Jews exiled there in 586 BCE. They were never privy to events in 1st C Judea.
quote: This is totally false. The scrolls, when in the hands of Christians and Muslims pre-1967, refrained from releasing these writings precisely because it made no mention of Jesus or anything in the Gospels. Anyone can read the scrolls today and check this out for themselves.
quote: Nothing to do with Jesus.
quote: Inadmissible 2nd C writings, with no contemporary evidences.
quote: Acts cannot be used to prove Acts.
quote: There were no 'christian' communites - this term appeared much later. In 1st C Jerusalem there was only Nazerites and Ebonites - both never held the positions of the Gospels, the reason they expelled Paul from their groups.
quote: No it does not.
quote: Yes. They mirror the Gospels while pre-dating it!
quote: You have no choice here. There was never a trial, nor was Barabus free in exchange - this was a Bin Laden type enemy of Rome and he would never have been released as claimed in the Gospels. If there was a trial, it would last less than a minute and would only refer to Jesus' violation of the heresy decree. Here, Jesus would have met the same faith as all other Jews.
quote: The reference to Zacharia is ridiculous here. There was no person called Luke, a Latin name, nor any apostles. Paul is a real historical figure, but not as that subscribed in the Gospels. He never met Jesus yet his writings accounts for the entire Gospels. Paul was amost blind and could not write. It is a historical fact Pail was imprisoned by Rome when he tried to infiltrate Greek stories into the Hebrew bible. The premise of 25th December and Sunday are dirct lift-offs from Mitraish, not a co-incdence here. Of note is that the Jews would never accept the rejection of the Sabbath - they went to war for it in 66CE when a battle with the Greeks occured in Cesaereah. The Jews would never accept divine man - they went to war wth Rome against it - in the full knowledge they would loose. The only mystery with Chritianity is how the people accepted such absurdity. The truth is they were totally enforced; the NT was forbidden to European Christians for 800 years - it was death to possess it. Only a Church cleric could read it to the people. Europe got ther belief via fiery pastors - it is wholly based on belief because it has not a shred of historical back-up. Now it is too late to overturn, making Christians victims.
quote: I regard the Hebrew bible as the most authentic historical writings humanity possess. Show us another reference of the Philistines, ancient Egypt, the medianites, moabites, the routes between Egypt and Canaan, etc, all of which have been proven as historical, anywhere else? The first mention of geograhical icons like Mount Ararat, Mount Nebo, the Tigress river, etc are in the Hebrew bible, in their correct locations. Which writings can you point to which proved a 3,200 year figure [David] and backed by archeological proof, or a 3,500 year Egyptian monolith mentioning a war with Israel? You cannot - so why question the Hebrew bible, or draw equivaences to the NT?
quote: If you call rejecting the term BORN OF THE DEVIL, etc, 2000 years of horrific villification, a holocaust and Heil Hitler salutes at the UN for 60 years denying Israel's history and rights as my problem then yes I am guilty. But also consider your POV again with some honesty. The Gospels created the Holocaust, more so than did the Nazis. Yet you point the finger at me!
quote: You keepo forgetting. King Solomon is proven as a historucal figure; not so any of the Gospel figures.
quote: It was specific with no other reading possible. Both the exile and the return, as well as it being fulfilled when it was least possible, are specific to historical occurences.
quote: So was the blood libel in medevial Eurpe lifted off pre-christian Greek archives: would like me topost these archves for you? The charges made against the Jews are not just highly offensive - they are not backed by any traditional history of Jews perpetrating such deeds. The Jews cherish and revere all 55 of their prophets - they do not kill them and dance at their death as per the Gospels and passion flicks. The Hebrew bible, which Christians claim to revere, commands that accusations have to be proven - not simply 'believed'. There is no proof of any of the charges, yet all Christians accept it. That is a crime as per the Hebrew bible and any bona fide court of laws.
quote: The Hebrew bible and belief criteria only antithise the Gospels. Sad but true. the same applies wth the Quran. Both are in violation and contradiction of the Hebrew bible and of each other. I don't exect anyone to agree with me: more than half of humanity is hinged in negation of the Hebrew bible and of the Jews - as seen in the case with Israel today. This applies: YOU SHALL NOT FOLLOW A CORRUPTED MAJORITY. Christianitywill come of age when it ceases being a SUBJECT TO JEWS belief system. I see America as the only potential savior of this otherwise great religion - precisely because America rebuffed medevial Europe with its Constitution being based on the Hebrew laws. Europe was obsessed with the destruction of Jews and the Hebrew bible, affording it only cursory valie if and when it aligned with the Gospels. The Hebrew version of pristine monotheism was rendered a crime. Europe lost this battle as did Rome with the Jews.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
Lord’s Prayer ‘totally Jewish,’ says US theological expert
By JTA11/15/2010 22:03 John Dominic Crossan, former Catholic priest says, The Lord’s Prayer comes from the heart of Judaism to the lips of Christianity. Talkbacks (21) LOS ANGELES -- The Lord’s Prayer, widely considered to undergird the foundation of Christianity, is utterly, totally, fully Jewish -- there’s nothing in it that is particularly Christian, a theological expert said. John Dominic Crossan, a former Catholic priest and now professor at DePaul University, articulates this thesis in the latest of his 26 books, The Greatest Prayer: Rediscovering the Revolutionary Message of the Lord's Prayer, released last week by HarperOne. Crossan is one of the foremost theological interpreters of the historical Jesus. The opening words of the Lord’s Prayer are, Our Father, who art in Heaven, and the first two words are key to Crossan’s reinterpretation. In traditional Christian thinking, the prayer is seen as establishing a relationship between the individual petitioner and God, but Crossan takes a different view in his book and in recent media interviews. Within the context of Judaism in the 1st century CE, the term Father, or Abba in Aramaic, would connote a householder who must provide equally for all members of his family, according to Crossan. In that sense, God is The Big Householder in the Sky who exercises distributive justice and who would be appalled by the huge discrepancy between rich and poor, Crossan argues. That concept reflects the radical vision of justice that is the core of Israel’s biblical tradition, Crossan writes. The Lord’s Prayer comes from the heart of Judaism to the lips of Christianity. There is a huge discrepancy between what most people think Christianity is really about and what Jesus thinks Christianity is really about, Crossan said in an interview with the Religion News Service. Crossan is an old hand at questioning Christian dogma and is one of the founders of the Jesus Seminar, a liberal Christian group. The Seminar has proposed that many of the miracles attributed to Jesus did not occur, at least not as written in the New Testament, and that Jesus did not physically rise from the dead.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
RE NERO MENTIONS CHIRSTIANS Fraud:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UgO8fAJVVM
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: My half brain says you are quoting a writings which was made long after the fact, My other half brain says the temple desruction occured before with babylon, is hardly a brilliant exampe of rophesy and was predicted by King Solomon before the babylon destruction. The point is, Christianity was not even referring to a temple - they wanted to say that all of Israel and Jews were dead forever and taken over by Europe. Nor can this passion for another nation's death be unrelated to the takeover bid of reobbery and coveting or render it as done by Gd. The blood was on the hands of Europe, which has maligned the persona of a Jew by speaking such falsehoods of in his name of aspiring his own peoples' death. Its repugnant, and far from any notion of love.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3699 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
The difference between the Abrahamic belief and Christianity and Islam; the latter two failed the test put to them:
Abraham, when told a city was to be destroyed, rebelled against such a decree:'WILL THE JUDGE OF ALL JUDGES TAKE THE INNOCENT WITH THE GUILTY? THIS EVIL BE FAR AWAY FROM YOU" He was blessed for his defense of others; while Christians and Muslims boast of their passion for the demise of Israel. Moses, when tested that the Israelites would be destroyed and not returned to their land due to the golden calf event, and a new nation made, he challenged this decree and said first remove me from your book. In contrast, the Muslims failed to welcome the Jews to their land during the Holocaust - they even sent help to Hitler and begged him not to let any Jews escape alive. Those who point fingers at thers should first look in the mirror.
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