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Author Topic:   Prophecy vs Free will
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 95 of 168 (630563)
08-26-2011 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by PaulK
08-26-2011 8:06 AM


Re: One look at the problem
I think I zoomed into the core issue of your premise, without disagreeing with your post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by PaulK, posted 08-26-2011 8:06 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by PaulK, posted 08-26-2011 9:27 AM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 97 of 168 (630571)
08-26-2011 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by PaulK
08-26-2011 9:27 AM


Re: One look at the problem
quote:
determinism which is in contradiction to libertarian free will.
Determinism, that one can change a dead end situation, and free will which seeks to do what it pleases, both have the issue of the law to contend with. I say this also applies to prophesy - it cannot conradict the source it relies upon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by PaulK, posted 08-26-2011 9:27 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by PaulK, posted 08-26-2011 9:45 AM IamJoseph has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 100 of 168 (630706)
08-27-2011 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 1:23 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
Your original contention was that we have no evidence of who wrote the books of the NT. Your examples of the OT only confirm they are not completely unreliable. They do not confirm authorship, as you intimated about the NT.
Yes they do: we find that the names and events are aligned with relics and artifacts and specific verses. If the book of kings lists a war in king David's time, and we find the Tel Dan find shows a monolit 100 years after king David describing that war - it is proof of that 3,200 year writings; authorship is listed and can only be proven by its surrounding proofs. If we have the book of Exodus listing a war of the Hebrews with Egypt, and find a stone monolith dated 3,500 years old listing a war of Egypt with Israel - the authorship of the book is considered reliable. At least there are some hard copy proofs here and of a period almost twice as old as the NT.
quote:
The NT can boast all the same archeological accuracy and has independant sources to corroborate, characters in said books
Produce one single example.
quote:
It only remains for you to demonstrate why the Prophecies and miracles are vain and pointless
I already did. How is walking on water conducive to a prophet freeing his people from paganism, invasion and brutality?
quote:
If the Apostle Paul said, the Law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, why should I go with your assertion that the NT miracles are vain and pointless, because they did not conform to some theory about impacting humanity, as you suggest
Paul was also thrown out by the Nazerites - the earliest followers of Jesus. Paul never met Jesus and was a 4th generation secular Greek who is hardly a reasonable figure to refer to.
quote:
Paul tells us the OT miracles and prophecies were the BASICS to get us to a higher plane and they did that very thing according to history and observation
Clearly, he was wrong. The Jews have beaten Christians in every faculty, including on their own home ground and while under extreme oppression. When will Christans really get on a higher plane at the Nobels, money lending and controlling all the banks? Here are some European Christians dispelling Paul, at least that Christians are not on such a higher plane after all:
"If there is any honor in all the world that I should like, it would be to be an honorary Jewish citizen." --A.L Rowse, authority on Shakespeare
Some people like the Jews, and some do not. But no thoughtful man can deny the fact that they are, beyond any question, the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has appeared in the world."
-- Winston Churchill
"The Jew is that sacred being who has brought down from heaven the everlasting fire, and has illumined with it the entire world. He is the religious source, spring, and fountain out of which all the rest of the peoples have drawn their beliefs and their religions."
--Leo Tolstoy
"It was in vain that we locked them up for several hundred years behind the walls of the Ghetto. No sooner were their prison gates unbarred than they easily caught up with us, even on those paths which we opened up without their aid."
--A. A. Leroy Beaulieu, French publicist, 1842
"The Jew gave us the Outside and the Inside - our outlook and our inner life. We can hardly get up in the morning or cross the street without being Jewish. We dream Jewish dreams and hope Jewish hopes. Most of our best words, in fact - new, adventure, surprise, unique, individual, person, vocation, time, history, future, freedom, progress, spirit, faith, hope, justice - are the gifts of the Jews."
--Thomas Cahill, Irish Author
"One of the gifts of the Jewish culture to Christianity is that it has taught Christians to think like Jews, and any modern man who has not learned to think as though he were a Jew can hardly be said to have learned to think at all."
--William Rees-Mogg, former Editor-in-Chief for The Times of London and a member of the House of Lords
"It is certain that in certain parts of the world we can see a peculiar people, separated from the other peoples of the world and this is called the Jewish people.... This people is not only of remarkable antiquity but has also lasted for a singular long time... For whereas the people of Greece and Italy, of Sparta, Athens and Rome and others who came so much later have perished so long ago, these still exist, despite the efforts of so many powerful kings who have tried a hundred times to wipe them out, as their historians testify, and as can easily be judged by the natural order of things over such a long spell of years. They have always been preserved, however, and their preservation was foretold... My encounter with this people amazes me..."
--Blaise Pascal, French Mathematician
"The Jewish vision became the prototype for many similar grand designs for humanity, both divine and man made The Jews, therefore, stand at the center of the perennial attempt to give human life the dignity of a purpose."
--Paul Johnson, American Historian
"As long as the world lasts, all who want to make progress in righteousness will come to Israel for inspiration as to the people who had the sense for righteousness most glowing and strongest."
--Matthew Arnold, British poet and critic
"Indeed it is difficult for all other nations of the world to live in the presence of the Jews. It is irritating and most uncomfortable. The Jews embarrass the world as they have done things which are beyond the imaginable. They have become moral strangers since the day their forefather, Abraham, introduced the world to high ethical standards and to the fear of Heaven. They brought the world the Ten Commandments, which many nations prefer to defy. They violated the rules of history by staying alive, totally at odds with common sense and historical evidence. They outlived all their former enemies, including vast empires such as the Romans and the Greeks. They angered the world with their return to their homeland after 2000 years of exile and after the murder of six million of their brothers and sisters.
"They aggravated mankind by building, in the wink of an eye, a democratic State which others were not able to create in even hundreds of years. They built living monuments such as the duty to be holy and the privilege to serve one's fellow men.
"They had their hands in every human progressive endeavor, whether in science, medicine, psychology or any other discipline, while totally out of proportion to their actual numbers. They gave the world the Bible and even their "savior."
"Jews taught the world not to accept the world as it is, but to transform it, yet only a few nations wanted to listen. Moreover, the Jews introduced the world to one God, yet only a minority wanted to draw the moral consequences. So the nations of the world realize that they would have been lost without the Jews. And while their subconscious tries to remind them of how much of Western civilization is framed in terms of concepts first articulated by the Jews, they do anything to suppress it.
"They deny that Jews remind them of a higher purpose of life and the need to be honorable, and do anything to escape its consequences. It is simply too much to handle for them, too embarrassing to admit, and above all, too difficult to live by.
"So the nations of the world decided once again to go out of 'their' way in order to find a stick to hit the Jews. The goal: to prove that Jews are as immoral and guilty of massacre and genocide as some of they themselves are.
"All this in order to hide and justify their own failure to even protest when six million Jews were brought to the slaughterhouses of Auschwitz and Dachau; so as to wipe out the moral conscience of which the Jews remind them, and they found a stick.
"Nothing could be more gratifying for them than to find the Jews in a struggle with another people (who are completely terrorized by their own leaders) against whom the Jews, against their best wishes, have to defend themselves in order to survive. With great satisfaction, the world allows and initiates the rewriting of history so as to fuel the rage of yet another people against the Jews. This in spite of the fact that the nations understand very well that peace between the parties could have come a long time ago, if only the Jews would have had a fair chance.
"Instead, they happily jumped on the wagon of hate so as to justify their jealousy of the Jews and their incompetence to deal with their own moral issues. When Jews look at the bizarre play taking place in The Hague , they can only smile as this artificial game once more proves how the world paradoxically admits the Jews uniqueness. It is in their need to undermine the Jews that they actually raise them.
"The study of history of Europe during the past centuries teaches us one uniform lesson: That the nations which received and in any way dealt fairly and mercifully with the Jew have prospered; and that the nations that have tortured and oppressed them have written out their own curse."
--Olive Schreiner, South African novelist and social activist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 1:23 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 2:13 AM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 102 of 168 (630709)
08-27-2011 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 2:13 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
The writers of the NT mention many officials such as Herod and Pilot. Josephus, and even roman historians reference names and events with regard to Christ, the brother of James, the crucifixtion and other contemporary events.
Mentioning figures like Herod, a Roman appointed ruler, without any cross-nation backing, or contemporary relics or artifacts of the NT figures, is hardly proof. It is open to gross retro doctoring.
Understand that I am not attacking Christianoty, but the reverse applies. The premise Judaism is nothing unless it aligns with the NT, and all else in the Hebrew is fulfilled away, is candy coated genocide of the worst form imaginable. It attempts to negate all of Israel's heritage, history, geography and belief. I cannot imagine a more evil doctrine, and you have to imagine this being done to Christianity!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 2:13 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 2:58 AM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 103 of 168 (630710)
08-27-2011 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 2:13 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
It seems that God does not agree with Mr Churchill
Correct. Churchill corrupted the Balfour and cut Israel asunder for 30 barrels of oil. Churchill is speaking with a forked tongue.
quote:
What is important to God is not as important to man.
False. "The Lord speaks in the language of the people'; 'He understandeth the nature of man'.
No subjects - no king.
quote:
"I desire mercy rather than sacrifice"
The law for sacrifice was given by God. Your pointing to mercy shows you are quite ignorant of the Hebrew bible: sacrifice was only allowed for accidental crimes, so mercy is not applicable here. It is hardly mercy when you boast how bad the Jews are and thus deserved all their woes. Better you admit the crimes of those you support and check their histories instead - there are none uglier.
What you also don't realise is animal sacrifice was rampant throughout the ancient world and was stemmed only by the Hebrew laws. By making one specific temple the only place for sacrifice, and limiting this to accidental and thanksgiving reasons, 99.9% of sacrifices became eliminated. This considered the nature and culture of ancient people and gave them the best means to rid of a human obsession from the dawn of time. In turn, human sacrifice was forbidden for the first time - in direct contradiction of the Gospel themes.
One day, Christianity and Islam will have to remove their theological racism and villifications, the only factor which can save these two religions; not for the benefit of the Jews, but this will be demanded by humanity itself. Making charges and conditions of salvation based on preferred beliefs only says they have no proof of their lies. Its racist too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 2:13 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 105 of 168 (630718)
08-27-2011 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 2:58 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
Interestingly enough it is God and your own text that describes the Jewish people, as a people, not christianity or history
Right."Know for a surety your seed shall be in bondage." If you also apply some insight, this was said before the Jewish nation was born, to Abram, before he even had a seed. Obviously, one cannot sin before they are born, making the charge applicable to the burden of monotheism and incur the wrath of divine king nations. That is precisely what occured.
quote:
God rejected them long before any Christian did.
LOL. Jews happen to be the only nation in the middle-east which prevailed. Please show me the verse where it says what you post! My version says they will be returned via a small remnant. You cannot write your own versions and leave out all actual prophesies.
quote:
Was it Christians that placed them in repeated captivity. Was it Christians that forced thier disobedience?
Yes:
"We will never support the return of the Jews to their homeland because they rejected JC"
- Pope not so Pius at the helm of Europe's holocaust. Does it mean Christianity must be taken over by Muslims because they rejected Mohammed - or does your logic only apply to Jews?
quote:
The writings of the earliest Christians of the same time period, place the books at the time they claim and you know it.
No such proof exsts. The earliest imprint of the Gospels is the 4th century, well after the Roman war with the Jews. That is hardly prophesy!
quote:
What do you call the roman historians, that cross reference these events?
The Roman archives of Tacitus, Apion, etc are loaded with descriptions of minute events with the Jews in Judea. Not a word about a trial by Pilate. You can also see the notorious blood libels in pre-christian Roman archives - affirming only a retrospective version of prophesy!
quote:
the earliest apostolic fathers, first century, nearly reproduce the entire NT. How did they do this, from imaginary documents. Much earlier than the fourth century wouldnt you agree
Most of these people did not know eachother directly
These people do not exist. The Gospels never existed at this time. The notion of Gospels according to Mathew, affirms only someone else is writing it. We are not even told the author and it is subscribed to one without a second name. Have you seriously not wondered why we do not have a shred of Hebrew Gospels, or one of Greek of its time - even with so many alledged writers?
quote:
Those numerous writers had nothing to gain and were certainly not aware they were accomplishing some forgery, with persecution and death square in the face
Rome had great reason to cover its crimes- a holocaust occured in 70 CE. Its not even mentioned in the Gospels, a grotesque lie-by-omission.
quote:
Do you honestly believe the items you mentioned prove authorship and inspiration for the Old Test
They do prove he was reliable enough to read on
There is no scripture with equivalent validity.
Its time that Christians and Muslims ceased being 'subject to Jews' belief systems, knock out all the thrash about Jews and raise your own beliefs as able to stand on its own. Jews are a miniscule nation, 1000's of year older and have totally different beliefs than what is subscribed to them. It is for your own good: Mighty Rome was the greatest super power in history, bigger than Christianity and Islam combined, and Rome was challenged by the smallest nation - and Rome lost this battle. Otherwise you would have been worshipping Jupiter and Zeus today. The only vindicated, provable prophey the last 2000 years is in the Hebrew bible and the dead sea scrolls. I am on the side of Christianity - but not in the mode Christians mean - that points to more disaster ahead for humanity waiting to hapen, and its got nothing to do with Jews, but only between:
NO SALVATION BUT THROUGH ME.
And
ITS A BLESSING TO KILL THE INFIDELS.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 2:58 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2011 2:56 PM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 111 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 8:06 PM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 107 of 168 (630757)
08-27-2011 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by anglagard
08-27-2011 2:56 PM


Re: Wrong (Likely Due to Eurocentrism)
Land and population is not the best criteria. The British empire had near equivalent counter empires [French, Spain, Austrian]; the Persians lost to the Greek empire. There was no counter to Rome's might for many centuries on this planet. The Brits lost to America, India and Germany. Rome's greatest war was with the smallest province, by period and human toll, 66 - 135 CE; toll of over 2.5 Million - equivalent to some 30M today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2011 2:56 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2011 6:53 PM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 108 of 168 (630758)
08-27-2011 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by anglagard
08-27-2011 2:56 PM


Re: Wrong (Likely Due to Eurocentrism)
quote:
Now back to Prophecy vs Free Will.
This subject has already been resolved:
The only vindicated prophesy the last 2000 years is in a hard copy dead sea scroll dated more than 2000 years and prophesizing "YOU SHALL SURELY BE RETURNED."
Check mate applies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2011 2:56 PM anglagard has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 110 of 168 (630782)
08-27-2011 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by anglagard
08-27-2011 6:53 PM


Re: Wrong (Likely Due to Eurocentrism)
quote:
Which century are you talking about? They were challenged every century. Carthage, Parthians, Teutonberg Forest, Goths, Huns, name one century they were not challenged. Hell, they even had to build two walls to keep the Picts from eating them for dinner.
The early names you mention were a pre-empire phase of Rome, while with the others, 'challenging' the Roman empire does not constitute an equivalence.
quote:
It would be off topic for me to debate you on your apparent lack of historical knowledge in this thread as you clearly deny the very existence of the Mongol Empire along with the various empires of China, India, and Persia thereby proving my subheading is completely appropriate.
I did not deny any of those; they were too far off, otherwise they would have fallen to Rome. Distance does not imply equivalence. My history is not in error: the Roman empire is universally regarded the most powerful one of its time, as well as one which had no similar equivalent opposition in any other time since then. No nation had a hope of withstanding a war with Rome; victory was inevitable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2011 6:53 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2011 8:13 PM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 113 of 168 (630789)
08-27-2011 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by anglagard
08-27-2011 8:13 PM


Re: Sorry Mods, Someone is Lying About History on the Internet
Mighty Roman empire, as opposed Rome, never lost any war. The 476 downfall was an internal disintergration piece by piece and revolts of a new world order approaching. Other empires like Briton never reached the zenith of Rome nor battled the same calibre warring nations such as Hanibal - they took over native peasants in comparison, like Australia and the natives of America who had not yet possessed gun powder. The previous great war empire of Greece was made redundent. I think my statement is reasonably accurate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2011 8:13 PM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2011 9:07 AM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 114 of 168 (630793)
08-27-2011 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 8:06 PM


COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
quote:
Right."Know for a surety your seed shall be in bondage." If you also apply some insight, this was said before the Jewish nation was born, to Abram, before he even had a seed. Obviously, one cannot sin before they are born, making the charge applicable to the burden of monotheism and incur the wrath of divine king nations. That is precisely what occured.
If you have some valid point to make by this statement, then I wish you would.
It is a most valid statement which displays true vindicated prophesy. You have not given any such equivalence.
quote:
Is your implication that Gods insight prophecy somehow forced said Israelites to disobey him at nearly every turn. Is that you implication?
Or do you agree with me that your own source represents them (not every single one) as stiffnecked and rebellious
This has no alignment with prophesy. All Hebrew prophets were rebelous, but in a positive way. They were tested and they challenged Gd. They never acted as thoughtless sheap, perhaps the reason they were focused on. The Israelites were correct and right for demanding proof from Moses; the Europeans were not - they just accepted the most grotesque falsehoods without demanding any proof.
quote:
Yes:
"We will never support the return of the Jews to their homeland because they rejected JC"
- Pope not so Pius at the helm of Europe's holocaust. Does it mean Christianity must be taken over by Muslims because they rejected Mohammed - or does your logic only apply to Jews?
this is where you will have a bit of a problem, whitewashing me with people using the same title. I know nothing about or am I interested in thier political views. I hope the return of the Jews to thier homeland is what the prophecy is referencing.
How could any Christian deny the error of a Pope rejecting the right of the Jews back to their own land, while also fostering their genocide in Europe? Is this not an exposure of the stuff in the Gospels?
quote:
Simply put it was God due to the continued disobedience by Israel on a whole that led them into captivity, time and time again
Simply put, it was not Gd but Europe who did the evil deeds.
quote:
All from Wiki
Tacitus on Christ
The word Christ never emerged till 174 CE. You should read further what the writing is based upon by checking the legend numbers.
quote:
See also: Jesus in the Talmud and Yeshu
This entry could have been the only real reference a Jesus existed - the Hebrew being far more credible than anything from Europe. But this too is invalidated, written after the 3rd C, and the reference to Yeshu is coded writings, belonging to another period, with no aligning to the period Christianity refers to.
quote:
The Babylonian Talmud in a few rare instances likely or possibly refers to Jesus using the terms "Yeshu," "Yeshu ha-Notzri," "ben Satda," and "ben Pandera." These references probably date back to the Tannaitic period (70—200 CE).[120]

No it does not. The Babylonian Talmud was written in Babylon by Jews exiled there in 586 BCE. They were never privy to events in 1st C Judea.
quote:
The Dead Sea scrolls are first century or older writings that show the language and customs of some Jews of Jesus' time.[125] According to clergyman and New Testament scholar Henry Chadwick, similar uses of languages and viewpoints recorded in the New testament and the Dead Sea scrolls are valuable in showing that the New Testament portrays the first century period that it reports and is not a product of a later period.[126][127]
[edit] Others
This is totally false. The scrolls, when in the hands of Christians and Muslims pre-1967, refrained from releasing these writings precisely because it made no mention of Jesus or anything in the Gospels. Anyone can read the scrolls today and check this out for themselves.
quote:
Thallus, of whom very little is known, wrote a history from the Trojan War to, according to Eusebius, 109 BC. No work of Thallus survives. There is one reference to Thallus having written about events beyond 109 BC. Julius Africanus, writing c. 221, while writing about the crucifixion of Jesus, mentioned Thallus. Thus:
On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.[128]
Nothing to do with Jesus.
quote:
Lucian, a second century Romano-Syrian satirist, who wrote in Greek, wrote:
Inadmissible 2nd C writings, with no contemporary evidences.
quote:
The Acts of Pilate is purportedly an official document from Pilate reporting events in Judea to the Emperor Tiberius (thus, it would have been among the commentarii principis). It was mentioned by Justin Martyr, in his First Apology (c. 150) to Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, and Lucius Verus. He said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion,
Acts cannot be used to prove Acts.
quote:
Ancient Christian creeds
Main article: Creed
The authors whose works are contained in the New Testament sometimes quote from creeds, or confessions of faith, that obviously predate their writings. Scholars believe that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.[167]

There were no 'christian' communites - this term appeared much later. In 1st C Jerusalem there was only Nazerites and Ebonites - both never held the positions of the Gospels, the reason they expelled Paul from their groups.
quote:
Of course this demonstrates that the original sources and its surrounding history were around much earlier and long enough, for it to be identified with that era. Only someone with extreme prejudice would ignore these facts
No it does not.
quote:
The Roman archives of Tacitus, Apion, etc are loaded with descriptions of minute events with the Jews in Judea
Yes. They mirror the Gospels while pre-dating it!
quote:
If by minute events with jews in Judea, you mean Jesus his trial and crucifixtion, then I agree
You have no choice here. There was never a trial, nor was Barabus free in exchange - this was a Bin Laden type enemy of Rome and he would never have been released as claimed in the Gospels. If there was a trial, it would last less than a minute and would only refer to Jesus' violation of the heresy decree. Here, Jesus would have met the same faith as all other Jews.
quote:
The prophesy of the trial, as you intimated is not mentioned in history, is mentioned here
1) He will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey (the colt of an ass) (Zechariah 9:9). Fulfillment: Matt. 21:5; Luke 19:32-37.There is no scripture with equivalent validity.
The reference to Zacharia is ridiculous here. There was no person called Luke, a Latin name, nor any apostles. Paul is a real historical figure, but not as that subscribed in the Gospels. He never met Jesus yet his writings accounts for the entire Gospels. Paul was amost blind and could not write. It is a historical fact Pail was imprisoned by Rome when he tried to infiltrate Greek stories into the Hebrew bible. The premise of 25th December and Sunday are dirct lift-offs from Mitraish, not a co-incdence here. Of note is that the Jews would never accept the rejection of the Sabbath - they went to war for it in 66CE when a battle with the Greeks occured in Cesaereah. The Jews would never accept divine man - they went to war wth Rome against it - in the full knowledge they would loose.
The only mystery with Chritianity is how the people accepted such absurdity. The truth is they were totally enforced; the NT was forbidden to European Christians for 800 years - it was death to possess it. Only a Church cleric could read it to the people. Europe got ther belief via fiery pastors - it is wholly based on belief because it has not a shred of historical back-up. Now it is too late to overturn, making Christians victims.
quote:
I beg to differ, as you have just witnessed. That is, you do, consider the OT as a reliable source of history and prediction correct?
I regard the Hebrew bible as the most authentic historical writings humanity possess. Show us another reference of the Philistines, ancient Egypt, the medianites, moabites, the routes between Egypt and Canaan, etc, all of which have been proven as historical, anywhere else? The first mention of geograhical icons like Mount Ararat, Mount Nebo, the Tigress river, etc are in the Hebrew bible, in their correct locations. Which writings can you point to which proved a 3,200 year figure [David] and backed by archeological proof, or a 3,500 year Egyptian monolith mentioning a war with Israel? You cannot - so why question the Hebrew bible, or draw equivaences to the NT?
quote:
Its time that Christians and Muslims ceased being 'subject to Jews' belief systems, knock out all the thrash about Jews and raise your own beliefs as able to stand on its own.
Between you and me, you are the only one turning it into a war of words
If you call rejecting the term BORN OF THE DEVIL, etc, 2000 years of horrific villification, a holocaust and Heil Hitler salutes at the UN for 60 years denying Israel's history and rights as my problem then yes I am guilty. But also consider your POV again with some honesty. The Gospels created the Holocaust, more so than did the Nazis. Yet you point the finger at me!
quote:
Wrong, besides those already listed another Jew made a prediction concerning the destruction of Jeruselem, long before it happened
You keepo forgetting. King Solomon is proven as a historucal figure; not so any of the Gospel figures.
quote:
IMJ, all anyone has to do, is suggest that the prophecy concerning the return of israel to thier homeland, is simply to suggest it was written in a general way, with no specifics of details
Therefore no reason to believe God was involved
In other words its to vauge and general to qualify as any kind of specific prophecy. It was a probable event
It was specific with no other reading possible. Both the exile and the return, as well as it being fulfilled when it was least possible, are specific to historical occurences.
quote:
In 100AD all anyone had to suggest is that Christ's prophecy concerning the destruction of jeruselem, was written after the fact
So was the blood libel in medevial Eurpe lifted off pre-christian Greek archives: would like me topost these archves for you? The charges made against the Jews are not just highly offensive - they are not backed by any traditional history of Jews perpetrating such deeds. The Jews cherish and revere all 55 of their prophets - they do not kill them and dance at their death as per the Gospels and passion flicks. The Hebrew bible, which Christians claim to revere, commands that accusations have to be proven - not simply 'believed'. There is no proof of any of the charges, yet all Christians accept it. That is a crime as per the Hebrew bible and any bona fide court of laws.
quote:
The question for you and me is, do the prophecies in the Old Test testify of and fulfill Christ and and of course they do
The Hebrew bible and belief criteria only antithise the Gospels. Sad but true. the same applies wth the Quran. Both are in violation and contradiction of the Hebrew bible and of each other. I don't exect anyone to agree with me: more than half of humanity is hinged in negation of the Hebrew bible and of the Jews - as seen in the case with Israel today. This applies:
YOU SHALL NOT FOLLOW A CORRUPTED MAJORITY.
Christianitywill come of age when it ceases being a SUBJECT TO JEWS belief system. I see America as the only potential savior of this otherwise great religion - precisely because America rebuffed medevial Europe with its Constitution being based on the Hebrew laws. Europe was obsessed with the destruction of Jews and the Hebrew bible, affording it only cursory valie if and when it aligned with the Gospels. The Hebrew version of pristine monotheism was rendered a crime. Europe lost this battle as did Rome with the Jews.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 8:06 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 11:35 PM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 115 of 168 (630798)
08-27-2011 11:14 PM


LORD'S PRAYER NOT OF THE CHRISTIAN LORD.
Lord’s Prayer ‘totally Jewish,’ says US theological expert
By JTA
11/15/2010 22:03
John Dominic Crossan, former Catholic priest says, The Lord’s Prayer comes from the heart of Judaism to the lips of Christianity.
Talkbacks (21)
LOS ANGELES -- The Lord’s Prayer, widely considered to undergird the foundation of Christianity, is utterly, totally, fully Jewish -- there’s nothing in it that is particularly Christian, a theological expert said.
John Dominic Crossan, a former Catholic priest and now professor at DePaul University, articulates this thesis in the latest of his 26 books, The Greatest Prayer: Rediscovering the Revolutionary Message of the Lord's Prayer, released last week by HarperOne. Crossan is one of the foremost theological interpreters of the historical Jesus.
The opening words of the Lord’s Prayer are, Our Father, who art in Heaven, and the first two words are key to Crossan’s reinterpretation. In traditional Christian thinking, the prayer is seen as establishing a relationship between the individual petitioner and God, but Crossan takes a different view in his book and in recent media interviews. Within the context of Judaism in the 1st century CE, the term Father, or Abba in Aramaic, would connote a householder who must provide equally for all members of his family, according to Crossan. In that sense, God is The Big Householder in the Sky who exercises distributive justice and who would be appalled by the huge discrepancy between rich and poor, Crossan argues.
That concept reflects the radical vision of justice that is the core of Israel’s biblical tradition, Crossan writes. The Lord’s Prayer comes from the heart of Judaism to the lips of Christianity.
There is a huge discrepancy between what most people think Christianity is really about and what Jesus thinks Christianity is really about, Crossan said in an interview with the Religion News Service.
Crossan is an old hand at questioning Christian dogma and is one of the founders of the Jesus Seminar, a liberal Christian group. The Seminar has proposed that many of the miracles attributed to Jesus did not occur, at least not as written in the New Testament, and that Jesus did not physically rise from the dead.

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 117 of 168 (630800)
08-27-2011 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 8:06 PM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
RE NERO MENTIONS CHIRSTIANS Fraud:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UgO8fAJVVM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 8:06 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 118 of 168 (630801)
08-27-2011 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 11:35 PM


Re: COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
quote:
I think anyone with half a brain and eyes at all can see this prophesy was fulfilled and is still being fulfilled
My half brain says you are quoting a writings which was made long after the fact, My other half brain says the temple desruction occured before with babylon, is hardly a brilliant exampe of rophesy and was predicted by King Solomon before the babylon destruction. The point is, Christianity was not even referring to a temple - they wanted to say that all of Israel and Jews were dead forever and taken over by Europe. Nor can this passion for another nation's death be unrelated to the takeover bid of reobbery and coveting or render it as done by Gd. The blood was on the hands of Europe, which has maligned the persona of a Jew by speaking such falsehoods of in his name of aspiring his own peoples' death. Its repugnant, and far from any notion of love.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 11:35 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 9:30 AM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 119 of 168 (630802)
08-27-2011 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 11:35 PM


Re: COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
The difference between the Abrahamic belief and Christianity and Islam; the latter two failed the test put to them:
Abraham, when told a city was to be destroyed, rebelled against such a decree:
'WILL THE JUDGE OF ALL JUDGES TAKE THE INNOCENT WITH THE GUILTY? THIS EVIL BE FAR AWAY FROM YOU"
He was blessed for his defense of others; while Christians and Muslims boast of their passion for the demise of Israel.
Moses, when tested that the Israelites would be destroyed and not returned to their land due to the golden calf event, and a new nation made, he challenged this decree and said first remove me from your book.
In contrast, the Muslims failed to welcome the Jews to their land during the Holocaust - they even sent help to Hitler and begged him not to let any Jews escape alive.
Those who point fingers at thers should first look in the mirror.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 11:35 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

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