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Author | Topic: Crime and Punishment | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: I visit as a mentor to a local youth prison. I have been doing so for over ten years, and while I have made my share of mistakes...I have also learned a lot from the discipline. At first, I used to go to "preach word salad", as you so cleverly put it. Volunteers have a limited amount of time to spend with their charges, and while educating them is an option, many are not ready for the discipline needed. Treating an individual is a holistic endeavor. Many of these youth come from families that have had generations in prison. The system is broken, that much we can agree on. Too many Christian groups act as "chaplains" or "counselors" in prisons and go there to "take the Good News of Christ" instead of going to feed, comfort, educate, clothe. In reality, they are nothing more than another way for the State to avoid providing the help that the prisoners really need and instead simply peddle platitudes and word salad. I seek to establish a rapport and a level of trust with my charges, which can often take several months of visits. I often attempt to educate them in the basics of planning for the future when they will be out. We often discuss such topics as the sociology of their current environment, global competition and the necessity for education in America, the responsibility of bringing kids into the world, the charge and responsibility of a spiritual life, and some strategies for planning...which I usually encourage them to initiate. Each individual is different, of course, and I always have to question my own motives for volunteering and attempt to do the best that I can at it...but quite frankly, in a broken system, they will not get better opportunities than I.add by edit: Took out my offensive jab and personal attack on jar Edited by Phat, : edited my mouth
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Rahvin writes: the solution is to address the root causes of crime in the first place, and help criminals such that they can see a promising future without resorting to crime. I fully agree, but in an era when states are cutting budgets as is, the solution appears unlikely...given cost restraints.
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Jon Inactive Member |
And of course that's all well and good for Phat, but what about the kids who are in prison?
JonLove your enemies!
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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Omni writes: I can't help but remember when I was on a rant about shoplifters at my local safeway and you pointed out some of the legitimate reasons they may have to steal. Rahvin, you've come full circle to the connection I see with OWS--economic injustice creates a criminal class, and that injustice follows that class throughout their prison experience. For many prison alumni, their first prison experience is a brutal radicalization--not a political radicalization, but one of deep, abiding rage against a world that first denied them opportunity, and then denied their very humanity. Its easy for society to wish to lock up those who threaten us, but the long term solutions start with empathy(not sympathy, mind you) and a plan of genuine rehabilitation, if it is possible. Granted, its not easy. We cant undo a lifetimes programming with one year of Parole classes.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The problem is that you have no training as a counselor or teacher or psychiatrist or psychologist or even as a mentor.
But the State sees you as an acceptable substitute for providing any of the services that might help rehabilitate and educate people that are incarcerated. Christian organizations like the one you volunteer with are a big part of the problem, a sop and hand wave way of avoiding doing what is needed.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I respectfully disagree with Jar. The state is not going to provide any services regardless of whether any volunteers step up to the plate. It would be foolish to think that if all of the volunteer organizations quit, that the state would feel pressure to do better.
If you are making an inmates life more bearable then you are way better than nothing.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Allow me to play the devil's advocate for a little bit here and ask you how you think crimes should be 'punished'?
Do you favor mostly the European system that you talk about in your posts? Do you have anything special that you's add or take away from that system? Or perhaps you have a revolutionary system of your own? JonLove your enemies!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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The first step would be to decriminalize many current offenses and declare the War on Drugs over.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Jon Inactive Member |
The first step would be to decriminalize many current offenses and declare the War on Drugs over. That will definitely help cut down on the prison population; but what about penalties for things that remain crimes? Jon Edited by Jon, : clarityLove your enemies!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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The first step is to cut the inflow, then rationalize the system
There are no good fast solutions. The big problem is that the laws are just plain stupid, and not just the drug laws. I remember when I was in Georgia, the penalty for busting into a Coke Machine and stealing the quarters was longer than for robbing the 7-11. Our whole system is screwed up and it will take decades to make the needed changes. The first step I'd suggest is to start by abolishing all laws below the State level.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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DC85 Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined:
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One thing that consistently annoys about the way our "justice" system works is that people always want it about Revenge or think the government should "punish" someone .
I don't think it's the government's job to determine what's good , bad or moral. The government's only job is to protect the public as a whole and it's safety. Revenge shouldn't be a factor regardless of how someone feels.
Edited by DC85, : No reason given.
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Jon Inactive Member |
In a thread over at FA about 'Occupy London', jar posted a link to a TED video that I found particularly relevant to this discussion on crime. There is a section toward the middle (7:35) especially on topic where Wilkinson discusses crime and imprisonment.
Video Link Jon Edited by Jon, : subtitleLove your enemies! |
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
One thing that consistently annoys about the way our "justice" system works is that people always want it about Revenge or think the government should "punish" someone . I don't think it's the government's job to determine what's good , bad or moral. Suppose a woman kills two people - comes home, finds her husband in bed with another woman, kills them both. Homicides of this type ("heat of moment", murderer knows the victim, thought they were justified) have the lowest rate of recidivism - rather close to "none" - because they're not killing for the pleasure of killing, they had a specific person or persons in mind that they wanted to be dead, and now that they are, well, you can't kill someone twice. How much time should that woman serve for a double 2nd-degree murder? (Or possibly "involuntary manslaughter" if the defense can prove the circumstances made her "emotionally disturbed.") There's a high degree of statistical certainty that she won't offend again. How does it "protect the public" to incarcerate her for any length of time? Or another example - the crime with the highest rate of recidivism is grand theft; thieves almost always return to a life of crime after serving their sentences because big-ticket theft makes a lot of money in a short period of time with relatively low personal risk, the crime is a particular warning flag for employers (who don't want their stuff stolen) and therefore thieves in particular have a hard time integrating into lawful society, and it's a "high skill" type of crime that thieves become invested in because of their training. Under your "protect the public" rubric it seems like we should give car thieves life sentences - or even the death penalty - because of the statistical surety that a car thief will steal more cars after we let him out. I would say that life sentences for car thieves and small fines for double murderers pervert most people's sense of what the purpose of the criminal justice system is supposed to be, but this seems to be the inescapable conclusion of your rejection of the notion that "justice" is about punishing the guilty. The third point I would add is that, in all iterative versions of the "Prisoner's Dilemma", quid pro quo ("I'll start out cooperating, but then I'll do to you whatever you did to me last round") invariably emerges as the most stable and effective overall strategy. That's a significant piece of evidence that, in fact, retributive justice is crucial to the protection and safety of society.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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Also, as you read up on the iterative Prisoner's Dilemma, make sure you pay particular attention to the results of the "I'll never betray you" strategy, which I would say most closely resembles the viewpoint expressed by "two wrongs don't make a right."
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DC85 Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: |
How much time should that woman serve for a double 2nd-degree murder? (Or possibly "involuntary manslaughter" if the defense can prove the circumstances made her "emotionally disturbed.") There's a high degree of statistical certainty that she won't offend again. How does it "protect the public" to incarcerate her for any length of time? It doesn't but at the same time... should one go after someone for the sake of revenge of a death or anything else? When does it stop? Why is doing it through the government different?
the crime with the highest rate of recidivism is grand theft; thieves almost always return to a life of crime after serving their sentences because big-ticket theft makes a lot of money in a short period of time with relatively low personal risk, the crime is a particular warning flag for employers (who don't want their stuff stolen) and therefore thieves in particular have a hard time integrating into lawful society, and it's a "high skill" type of crime that thieves become invested in because of their training. Under your "protect the public" rubric it seems like we should give car thieves life sentences - or even the death penalty - because of the statistical surety that a car thief will steal more cars after we let him perhaps? It would indeed be about the threat to majority of society. I'm not sure one crime is "worse" than the other... This also could be because I tend not to think with emotion... I'm rather "cold" I think the the government would find it in it's best interest to prevent the crime by investing in low income schools and getting people on their feet. The truth is the vast majority of these crimes happen in and with "hopeless" people who think that is the only way to get ahead. Punishing people for doing "bad things" seems like a pointless practice to me. Edited by DC85, : No reason given.
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