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Author | Topic: Applying Ocam's Razor To BB vs Biblical ID Creationism and EvC | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Ocams Razor renders the simplest explanation as the more likely explanation of phenomena, etc.
This thread is for debate, applying Ocam's Razor to the following list of examples.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." ![]()
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
First law of thermodynamics:
quote: BS writes:
The 1LoT does not mention the universe nor how long it has existed.
1. According to 1LoT, the Universe is infinite in time, including it's constant unchanging amount of energy. BS writes:
1LoT does not mention anything about infinite amounts of energy.
2. According to Genesis one and the Biblical record, the infinite Biblical god, Jehovah who resides in the cosmos of the Universe resides in an infinite time Universe, having infinite stable amount of energy, as per 1LoT, which eminates from him, ever changing form. BS writes:
Crystals. 3. As is most commonly (I say, commonly) observed, physically, chaos does not spontaniously progress into order by natural means void of ID. Barns do not emerge from forests to structures, books, void of ID. Chaotic iron ore does not emerge naturally into forged tools, etcYou've been told this before. Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Have you ever read the Bible Buz?
Here is Genesis 1:
quote: Can you point to where Jehovah is mentioned, where it says God is infinite, where it says God resides in the cosmos of the universe (whatever that means) resides in an infinite universe, where it says that God has an infinite stable amount of energy or that energy emits from God? Abe: It's also interesting that according to the Bible, the critter Buz says has infinite energy had to take the seventh day off to rest from all the work he had done. Edited by jar, : see AbE:Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Ocams Razor renders the simplest explanation as the more likely explanation of phenomena, etc. Sure, that's one way to put it. The classic formulation is "do not unnecessarily multiply entities."
According to 1LoT, the Universe is infinite in time, including it's constant unchanging amount of energy. No, it's not, and a finite universe is simpler than an infinite one (less entities; infinitely less entities, in fact.) So Occam's Razor suggests that we should posit a finite universe.
According to Genesis one and the Biblical record, the infinite Biblical god, Jehovah who resides in the cosmos of the Universe resides in an infinite time Universe, having infinite stable amount of energy, as per 1LoT, which eminates from him, ever changing form. Since "God" is, in Laplace's famous formulation, unneeded as a hypothesis, Occam's Razor suggests that we do not posit the existence of a God, Biblical or otherwise. Occam's Razor suggests atheism.
As is most commonly (I say, commonly) observed, physically, chaos does not spontaniously progress into order by natural means void of ID. Crystals - a highly ordered form of matter - are trivially observed to spontaneously form from liquid solutions. Liquids are highly disordered. Order can be observed to arise from disorder every winter, or in the formation of rock candy as a simple syrup cools on the counter. These happen regardless of the presence of any intelligence. Occam's razor therefore suggests that order arises naturally from disorder under specific conditions.
Chaotic iron ore does not emerge naturally into forged tools, etc Strictly speaking, the pure iron, being crystalline and therefore brittle, is highly ordered. Smiths make tools by alloying iron with impurities (carbon, vanadium, other rare earth metals) and inducing it, by cycles of heating and cooling, to become highly disordered and random in structure. The more a steel is disordered on a molecular level, the stronger it is. Tool steel doesn't naturally reform into ore, so that should indicate to you the direction of increasing entropy. Smiths shape tools by inducing iron to adopt a more entropic configuration - to become highly disordered.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Buzsaw writes:
Is water common enough for you? Simple hydrogen and oxygen molecules spontaneously combine to form more complex water molecules - and the spark that touches it off is pretty much void of intelligence. As is most commonly (I say, commonly) observed, physically, chaos does not spontaniously progress into order by natural means void of ID. Edited by ringo, : Spellinge.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Ocam's razor is a philosopher's tool to make their lives a little easier - beyond trying to organise hypotheses into their most likely order it doesn't and can't solve a problem in science. Science needs evidence and the simplest solution is not a requirement for the correct answer.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Panda writes: First law of thermodynamics:quote:] The closed infinite time and space system is one of unbounded space, space having no visible properties capable of bounding space. Thus it has no surroundings. Again, Ocam's Razor would apply, due to the fact that no space bounds can be physically observed or falsified. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." ![]()
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
The closed infinite time and space system is one of unbounded space, space having no visible properties capable of bounding space. Space can easily be finite without being bounded. The surface of a sphere is an example of a structure finite in area, but without any borders at all. Space might very well be the same. Indeed, a cursory examination of the night sky should serve to prove that the universe must be finite in time and space; looking into an infinite universe at any point in the sky, your vision would terminate in a star no matter where you looked. Since the night sky is not a uniform sea of bright starlight, but a lightless void punctuated by the occasional star, we know that the universe is finite in time and space.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
crashfrog writes: The surface of a sphere is an example of a structure finite in area, There you go again, tipically applying a 2 (abe: metrical dimension model to a 3 metrical dimension system.) Edited by Buzsaw, : as notedBUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." ![]()
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
BS writes:
Which 1LoT does not mention.
The closed infinite time and space system is one of unbounded space, space having no visible properties capable of bounding space. Thus it has no surroundings. BS writes:
Wrong. Again, Ocam's Razor would apply, due to the fact that no space bounds can be physically observed or falsified.As with the 1LoT, you have intentionally misrepresented Occam's Razor. You are simply wishing away any facts that contradict your view of the world. By your logic: the universe was created by god - because it is a simpler explanation than the Big Bang Theory.But also by your logic: this forum was created by god - because it is a simpler explanation than Percy writing it in php. And also by your logic: god took a shit in my toilet - because it is a simpler explanation than food getting consumed and digested and then defecated by me. I also note that you still can't bring yourself to address your stupid comments about chaotic systems never creating order.That probably means that we will have to continue saying "Crystals!" to you. Jeez. Even a goldfish can learn quicker than you. Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Buz writes: crashfrog writes: The surface of a sphere is an example of a structure finite in area, There you go again, tipically applying a 2D model to a 3D system. A circle is 2D, a sphere is 3D.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3742 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
BS writes:
Spheres are 2D? There you go again, tipically applying a 2D model to a 3D system. There are a lot of sportsmen who would disagree with you... Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
There you go again, tipically applying a 2D model to a 3D system. I assumed you had the imagination and intelligence to apply the notion to a 3D space, but I see I was mistaken. The mathematics is equally applicable; a volume can be finite but unbounded just as an area can, since volume is just the integration of area over distance. Calculus makes a lot of things possible. I eschewed math early in my college career, but recently forced myself to complete it. It was surprisingly rewarding and I continue to reap the benefits.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Spheres are 2D? There are a lot of sportsmen who would disagree with you... I'd give Buzsaw most of the credit on this question. It is only the surface of a 2-sphere that is relevant, and that surface is 2D space. The stuff contained in the "interior" of a 2-sphere is not real. Buzsaw fails to get full credit because he refused to note that a 2 sphere is simply an analogy for the topology of the universe. I don't believe any of us can visualize the 3 spheres and 4 spheres. At least I know I cannot. Perhaps part of the difficulty is that it is quite easy to look at a 2-sphere and to believe it is actually like a basketball, and to believe that a 3-sphere cannot possibly exist because there is no equivalent "extra" dimension to curve into. Of course that reasoning is complete hogwash. I wish you guys the best with this endeavor. Buzsaw actually brags about not having been indoctrinated by university professors and their higher math and physics. That attitude wouldn't seem to bode well for a thread of this nature; a thread that belongs you now where. But I'm rooting for all of you. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Panda writes: By your logic: the universe was created by god - because it is a simpler explanation than the Big Bang Theory. No, Panda. Infinite systems are never created. The energy in the Universe changes forms as work is applied, Wonderfully designed complex closed systems within it are created and/or destroyed by the intelligent designer of them, the working designer being the Biblical god, Jehovah, the majestic manager of the Universe. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." ![]()
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