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Author Topic:   Why Creationism
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 32 of 91 (67177)
11-17-2003 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Charles Munroe
11-16-2003 10:20 PM


Responding to charles munroe
OK! According to your way of looking at things it is perfectly OK for the district attorney to swear out a warrant for the arrest of a person because "if given the chance to commit a crime that person would do so". Whoaaa!!!
The thing here is that they would not be arrested until they commit it and thats what happened with adam and eve.We are borned sinners not biologically but spiritually. let me explain. we suffer from the desicion adam and eve made just like a kid who suffers from an abusive parent who is always drunk. The kid is innocent but he is suffering from the desicion his father made and in time it is most likely he will become an alchoholic and abusive himself. another thing here is that our nature as humans is to be selfish greedy,vain, and all those things. This comes from adam and eves sin. We can see this in little kids when they play among each other. they tend to always fight because they dont want to share their toys,candy, etc. and we the grown ups or at least the responsible ones are the ones who teach our kids the importance of sharing and helping your neighbor. God is the one that teaches us how to get the most out of life by establishing comandments. We break them, we pay justlike adam and eve did and probably will hurt people who had nothing to do with the situation. I guess this is just life

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Charles Munroe, posted 11-16-2003 10:20 PM Charles Munroe has not replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 35 of 91 (67184)
11-17-2003 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Dan Carroll
11-17-2003 10:47 AM


WRONG!
"This leads to another big question about the bible in general... if immortality is the only thing that keeps us from being like God, then why aren't we able to disagree with his rules of morality and sin? According to his own words, we are like him as far as knowledge of good and evil goes. " Posted by Dan Carroll
inmortality is not what separates us from God. Angels,Satan,Demons are also inmortal and are not God. God is all knowing, omnipresent(iseverywhere) and ominpotente(spanish for all powerful). Neither the angels Satan or the demons have this quality. Another thing, God can create anything from nothing. nobody else can do that. And believe me pal nothing comes from nothing. My little sister can prove that

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-17-2003 10:47 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 11-17-2003 5:48 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied
 Message 39 by sidelined, posted 11-17-2003 5:56 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 38 of 91 (67192)
11-17-2003 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Dan Carroll
11-17-2003 11:58 AM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
"This is requiring an awful lot of supposition in addition to the text, just for it to make linear sense." Posted by my pal Dan Carroll
Is evolution any different?
"We know good and evil just like God. This is from God's own lips. So why can't we make our own decisions as to what's good and what's evil? "
We can tell good from evil like God but we cant always choose right like God can. God protects us from ourselves since most of our desicions are very bad ones. And besides we cant make our own choices as to what's good or bad in our opinion because we are not ours. God says that we are his property since he created us and this world no matter if you believe in him or not. One day when you die youll have to stand before his throne and give God an explanation to why you lived your life they way you did. We all will have to do that one day

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-17-2003 11:58 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-17-2003 8:36 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied
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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 40 of 91 (67197)
11-17-2003 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by crashfrog
11-17-2003 5:48 PM


"That's "omnipotent", and it's from the Latin, yo."
i dont know. Who gives a crap anyways?
"And yet, science proves you wrong. Stuff is always coming out of empty space, at every point, at every moment. Something from nothing happens all the time at the quantum level."
boy id love that to happen right now. I wish a gorgeous women would appear in that empty corner in my room. Energy can transform itself into mass. but energy cant be neither created nor destroyed. The energy in the universe is constant and it conserves itself. It had to be created.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 11-17-2003 5:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by crashfrog, posted 11-17-2003 6:11 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied
 Message 42 by sidelined, posted 11-17-2003 6:15 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied
 Message 54 by sidelined, posted 11-18-2003 9:05 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 43 of 91 (67202)
11-17-2003 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by sidelined
11-17-2003 5:56 PM


Re: WRONG!
Now explain to me where you derive these qualities of God from.Where do you see written down that god has these qualities? Do you know that these qualities are unsupportable in the real world?
Ill have to look up the exact place where you can find it. its in the bible ive read it. for Christians. the world is divided in two the physical and the spiritual. These qualities are unsupportable in the one dimensional world you live in but when you have a direct relationship with God he starts to show you parts of the spiritual world. for example he shows you the angels and demons moving and carrying out their tsks here on earth. of course, if you dont believe in god youll never see this and thats why youll die living in this boring one dimensional world thinking that if you cant explain it it doesnt exist. The bible says that to the natural man(the non spiritual) the thigs of the spiritual world are crazyness to them which is your case exactly. but hey you just dont believe and i respect that choice.
"Now how do you know that?Are you God's right hand man?He told you directly?"
i just simply believe it the way you believe in the big bang or whatever it is. Where you there when the big bang occured? How do you know it is true?
"We shall leave your sister out of this and have you prove it."
Prove to me it can happen. Burn a pice of wood and try doing the reverse. Or leave the ashes and maybe in a million years it will become a butterfly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by sidelined, posted 11-17-2003 5:56 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Rei, posted 11-17-2003 6:24 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 45 of 91 (67204)
11-17-2003 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by sidelined
11-17-2003 6:15 PM


"Now I would ask you to answer this.Can God make something so heavy He cannot lift it? Can he make something so insubstantial that He cannot see it? Then tell me again that he is omnipotent. "
This wont happen that is why he is omnipotent. He created this world you and everything else. He can do anything he wants thats why he is god

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by sidelined, posted 11-17-2003 6:15 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by sidelined, posted 11-17-2003 9:21 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 46 of 91 (67205)
11-17-2003 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Rei
11-17-2003 6:24 PM


Re: WRONG!
"Please pardon me for being like this, but I have this nasty tendancy to believe in things because the evidence supports them, not because I'd like for them to be true."
thats why i believe in God. my life is proof of it.
"Here's a question for you - please humor me on it. How old are you?"
not old enough as you granpa but old enough to accept that the world was created by a god who will one day destroy it and judge all of us according to his law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Rei, posted 11-17-2003 6:24 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Rei, posted 11-17-2003 6:38 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied
 Message 48 by Loudmouth, posted 11-17-2003 6:41 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 58 of 91 (67676)
11-19-2003 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Rei
11-17-2003 6:38 PM


Re: WRONG!
"Could you please put that in a base-10 number?"
Sure. 20
"Ah. So, what evidence do you think favors the interference of a deity in this world, as opposed to the fundamental, repeatable laws of quantum physics, relativity, etc? Or do you believe in the God of the Gaps (who would currently be hiding in wave functions)? Or do you believe in a personal God, but a sneaky one - one who interferes with reality, but never when there's an experiment going on that would show such interference?"
I'm not to familiar with the theory of quantum physics nor relativity so i cant debate efectively in that area but ill educate myself about it and come back here sometime to debate about it. The thing is that god is real .like i saud before my life is proof of it. Why dont you give it a try someday? it worked for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Rei, posted 11-17-2003 6:38 PM Rei has not replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 59 of 91 (67679)
11-19-2003 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Loudmouth
11-17-2003 6:41 PM


Re: WRONG!
"So you don't need faith, you know God exists? I thought you had to believe in God through Faith, and not through proof. " by loudmouth.
The things God has done in my life is the prooof of his existence to me. Faith comes in when you have something you want very badly and it seems imposible to have it. God says in his word ask me and believe with your whole heart it can be done without any doubt in your heart and it shall be done. Thats faith and through faith we get the proof we need.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 9:37 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 61 of 91 (67682)
11-19-2003 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dan Carroll
11-17-2003 8:36 PM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
"Why not? We have the same knowledge of good and evil that he does. How can one entity have a leg up in decision-making over another when the two are drawing on the same level of knowledge?" by dan carroll
We have the same knowledge of good and evil but god is not subjected to the temptations like we do. this temptations are the ones that make us fail when we make desicions. When we make desicions we dont always know the imidiate consequences of them but god knows the imidiate consequence of every desicion and thats why I listen to his advice or read it through the bible.
"So... basically, God's the toughest, and might makes right?
What a sick idea. "
god is definetly the toughest but the thing here is that he created us and we simply obey him because in the end it will be good for us. Believing in the survival of the fittest is even sicker. this form of thinking leads to a lot of human rights violatons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-17-2003 8:36 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by zephyr, posted 11-19-2003 9:55 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied
 Message 64 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:02 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 63 of 91 (67684)
11-19-2003 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dan Carroll
11-17-2003 8:36 PM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
"1) Yep. Read up a little. The theory of evolution makes plenty of linear sense all on its own.
2) Feel free to find all the errors you want in Origin of the Species. In fact, I encourage it. Always good to route out errors." by dan carroll
Hers some information for you.
Genetics: No Friend of Evolution
A highly qualified biologist tells it like it is
by Lane Lester
First published in:
Creation 20(2):20-22,
March-May 1998
Genetics and evolution have been enemies from the beginning of both concepts. Gregor Mendel, the father of genetics, and Charles Darwin, the father of modern evolution, were contemporaries. At the same time that Darwin was claiming that creatures could change into other creatures, Mendel was showing that even individual characteristics remain constant. While Darwin’s ideas were based on erroneous and untested ideas about inheritance, Mendel’s conclusions were based on careful experimentation. Only by ignoring the total implications of modern genetics has it been possible to maintain the fiction of evolution.
To help us develop a new biology based on creation rather than evolution, let us sample some of the evidence from genetics, arranged under the four sources of variation: environment, recombination, mutation, and creation.
Environment
This refers to all of the external factors which influence a creature during its lifetime. For example, one person may have darker skin than another simply because she is exposed to more sunshine. Or another may have larger muscles because he exercises more. Such environmentally-caused variations generally have no importance to the history of life, because they cease to exist when their owners die; they are not passed on. In the middle 1800s, some scientists believed that variations caused by the environment could be inherited. Charles Darwin accepted this fallacy, and it no doubt made it easier for him to believe that one creature could change into another. He thus explained the origin of the giraffe’s long neck in part through ‘the inherited effects of the increased use of parts’.1 In seasons of limited food supply, Darwin reasoned, giraffes would stretch their necks for the high leaves, supposedly resulting in longer necks being passed on to their offspring.
Recombination
This involves shuffling the genes and is the reason that children resemble their parents very closely but are not exactly like either one. The discovery of the principles of recombination was Gregor Mendel’s great contribution to the science of genetics. Mendel showed that while traits might be hidden for a generation they were not usually lost, and when new traits appeared it was because their genetic factors had been there all along. Recombination makes it possible for there to be limited variation within the created kinds. But it is limited because virtually all of the variations are produced by a reshuffling of the genes that are already there.
For example, from 1800, plant breeders sought to increase the sugar content of the sugar beet. And they were very successful. Over some 75 years of selective breeding it was possible to increase the sugar content from 6% to 17%. But there the improvement stopped, and further selection did not increase the sugar content. Why? Because all of the genes for sugar production had been gathered into a single variety and no further increase was possible.
Among the creatures Darwin observed on the Galpagos islands were a group of land birds, the finches. In this single group, we can see wide variation in appearance and in life-style. Darwin provided what I believe to be an essentially correct interpretation of how the finches came to be the way they are. A few individuals were probably blown to the islands from the South American mainland, and today’s finches are descendants of those pioneers. However, while Darwin saw the finches as an example of evolution, we can now recognize them merely as the result of recombination within a single created kind. The pioneer finches brought with them enough genetic variability to be sorted out into the varieties we see today.2
Mutation
Now to consider the third source of variation, mutation. Mutations are mistakes in the genetic copying process. Each living cell has intricate molecular machinery designed for accurately copying DNA, the genetic molecule. But as in other copying processes mistakes do occur, although not very often. Once in every 10,000—100,000 copies, a gene will contain a mistake. The cell has machinery for correcting these mistakes, but some mutations still slip through. What kinds of changes are produced by mutations? Some have no effect at all, or produce so small a change that they have no appreciable effect on the creature. But many mutations have a significant effect on their owners.
Based on the creation model, what kind of effect would we expect from random mutations, from genetic mistakes? We would expect virtually all of those which make a difference to be harmful, to make the creatures that possess them less successful than before. And this prediction is borne out most convincingly. Some examples help to illustrate this.
Geneticists began breeding the fruit fly, Drosophila melanogaster, soon after the turn of the century, and since 1910 when the first mutation was reported, some 3,000 mutations have been identified.3 All of the mutations are harmful or harmless; none of them produce a more successful fruit flyexactly as predicted by the creation model.
Is there, then, no such thing as a beneficial mutation? Yes, there is. A beneficial mutation is simply one that makes it possible for its possessors to contribute more offspring to future generations than do those creatures that lack the mutation.
Darwin called attention to wingless beetles on the island of Madeira. For a beetle living on a windy island, wings can be a definite disadvantage, because creatures in flight are more likely to be blown into the sea. Mutations producing the loss of flight could be helpful.
The sightless cave fish would be similar. Eyes are quite vulnerable to injury, and a creature that lives in pitch dark would benefit from mutations that would replace the eye with scar-like tissue, reducing that vulnerability. In the world of light, having no eyes would be a terrible handicap, but is no disadvantage in a dark cave. While these mutations produce a drastic and beneficial change, it is important to notice that they always involve loss of information and never gain. One never observes the reverse occurring, namely wings or eyes being produced on creatures which never had the information to produce them.
Natural selection is the obvious fact that some varieties of creatures are going to be more successful than others, and so they will contribute more offspring to future generations. A favourite example of natural section is the peppered moth of England, Biston betularia. As far as anyone knows, this moth has always existed in two basic varieties, speckled and solid black. In pre-industrial England, many of the tree trunks were light in colour. This provided a camouflage for the speckled variety, and the birds tended to prey more heavily on the black variety. Moth collections showed many more speckled than black ones. When the Industrial Age came to England, pollution darkened the tree trunks, so the black variety was hidden, and the speckled variety was conspicuous. Soon there were many more black moths than speckled [Ed. note: see Goodbye, peppered moths for more information].
As populations encounter changing environments, such as that described above or as the result of migration into a new area, natural selection favours the combinations of traits which will make the creature more successful in its new environment. This might be considered as the positive role of natural selection. The negative role of natural selection is seen in eliminating or minimizing harmful mutations when they occur.
Creation
The first three sources of variation are woefully inadequate to account for the diversity of life we see on earth today. An essential feature of the creation model is the placement of considerable genetic variety in each created kind at the beginning. Only thus can we explain the possible origin of horses, donkeys, and zebras from the same kind; of lions, tigers, and leopards from the same kind; of some 118 varieties of the domestic dog, as well as jackals, wolves and coyotes from the same kind. As each kind obeyed the Creator’s command to be fruitful and multiply, the chance processes of recombination and the more purposeful process of natural selection caused each kind to subdivide into the vast array we now see.
References
Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, 6th Edition, John Murray, London 1902, p. 278. Darwin did see natural selection acting on this and other causes of variation as an important factor in giraffe neck evolution, but not many are aware of his reliance on inheritance of acquired characteristics.
The different species of Galpagos finches have been observed interbreeding at times, clear evidence that they belong to the same created kind.
Dan L. Lindsley and E.H. Grell, Genetic Variations of Drosophila melanogaster, Carnegie Institution of Washington, Publication No. 627, 1967.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-17-2003 8:36 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:11 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied
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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 65 of 91 (67686)
11-19-2003 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Dan Carroll
11-19-2003 9:37 AM


Re: WRONG!
"God is some sort of holy concierge?
Hm... this idea intrigues me. Let's say I really, really want to have a threesome with Angelina Jolie and the girl who plays Chloe on Smallville, but it seems impossible to have it... "
NO hes some sort of a loving father. He concedes only does petitions which are worthy and not vain. He will not give us something that will make us sin also. If he did i wouldve already given angelina a ride on my boat if you know what i mean

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 9:37 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:13 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 68 of 91 (67689)
11-19-2003 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dan Carroll
11-19-2003 10:02 AM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
"Well hang on then... is Genesis correct or incorrect when it says our knowledge of good and evil is like God's? (In other words, does he have greater knowledge of good and evil than us, making Genesis wrong, or does he have the same knowledge as us, making Genesis right?)"
We have the same knowledge of right and wrong as god does without the shadow of the doubt but the difference is that we cant look past the moment were living and god already knows the last day of this earth. what i mean is that god knows if the desicion you make today will come bak to haunt you even if it seems as the right one at the moment. Do you now see the differnce? We are only capable of making desicions influenced by the circumstances that surround us at the moment. Different options will arise and we wont know in the end which will be the best one. thats when we turn to God in preyer seeking his advice
"Who's to say it's good for us? Someone whose knowledge of good and evil is the same as our own?
"Please, people... no more circular logic. It's killing me. Not physical death, true, but each time I die a little inside."
like i said before you wont know if many of your desicions were the right ones until time passes. you can only see the moment youre living. God can go through time because he created it and look into the future to see if the desicion benefits us or hurts us. Until you experience god for yourself you ont understand this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:02 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:30 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 69 of 91 (67690)
11-19-2003 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dan Carroll
11-19-2003 10:02 AM


Re: One thing that really bothers me...
"It's definitely worse than the idea that one peron can rule everything and everyone in the universe, not because of greater wisdom, but just because he says so."
He is of greater wisdom and thats why he gives advice to us. he doesnt make you. will god appear to you and force you to serve him just because he said so? no. He will reveal himself only to those who by their own will decide to serve him. Thats why ill always respect your opinion. if god himself doesnt force you to believe him i wont either because he gave you your free will and nobody can take it away

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:02 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-19-2003 10:34 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5645 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 72 of 91 (67693)
11-19-2003 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Dan Carroll
11-19-2003 10:13 AM


Re: WRONG!
"Which brings us back to the still-unresolved question as to why he gets to define sin."
Because he is the creator. Is the same as why is the goverment the one who decides law. it was created to maintain a healthy order. but sin is everything that goes against what god stands for. it incledes lying, adultery etc etc etc you how it goes. since he created the world he also provided the rules for healthy living those who do not obey will be punished with the consequences of their choices

This message is a reply to:
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