Truth of resurrection and death of the apostles (for Willowtree)

Resurrection and death of the apostlesMany times over the years I have heard the argument the one can believe the truth of the resurrection because all the apostles died a horrible martyr’s death for their belief. The argument goes, Why would they allow themselves to be killed for a lie?The people making this argument also usually claim that the writers of the gospels were eye witnesses to the truth of the resurrection.Recently, in this thread, http://EvC Forum: Considerations of Christ's Resurrection -->EvC Forum: Considerations of Christ's Resurrection, Willowtree made these same arguments.The following questions were asked in the above referenced thread. The second question will be asked in a second post to facilitate answers concerning each.Which resurrection story is the TRUE one? Each of the four gospels tells a different story.Matthew 28 — Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James
an angel descended and rolled away the stone / sat on it
The angel talked to the two women
The women ran to tell the disciples and met Jesus on the wayMark 16 - Mary M, Mary mother of James AND Salome stone was already rolled away
Inside was a young man
Man talked to the three women
They ran away afraid and didn’t tell anyone
Jesus then appeared to Mary M.
Then he appeared to two of the disciples
Then he appeared to the 11Luke 24 - no names listed at the beginning
stone already rolled away
inside were two men
they told the 11
lists Mary M, Mary mother of James and Joanna and others who were there
Peter went to see for himself
Jesus appeared to two, Cleopas and anotherJohn 20/21 - still dark
Mary M
stone already rolled away
didn't look, ran to tell Simon and the disciple that Jesus loved
They went to look and saw no one there
Mary M stayed and saw two angels
she turned and saw Jesus
told the disciples
that evening Jesus appeared to the disciples together------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Now for the second half of my question, concerning the apostles being martyred for their belief in one of the above mentioned truths.All the stories I could find concerning this, talk of tradition or stories say; in other words hearsay.Matthew — by tradition - either died by the sword in Ethiopia, or Persia, possibly 60ce, or was martyred in Egypt, or is unknown, or died of old ageMark — by tradition — dragged by horses to his death in Alexandria, Egypt, possibly 68ce, or torn to pieces by a mobLuke — by tradition — hanged in Greece between 75 and 100ce, or died of old age, or claims that no information is availableJohn — by tradition — survived boiling in oil, sentenced to the mines on Patmos — freed and served as Bishop in Turkey, died of old age in Ephesus 100ce or somewhere between 98 and 117ce. — his banishment was either during the reign of Nero 54 -68ce or the reign of Domitian 81 — 96cePeter — by tradition — crucified by Nero in either 64ce, 66ce or 67cePaul — by tradition — either beheaded by Nero in Rome in 64ce, 66ce, 67ce or 69ce, or torn to pieces by wild animalsJames, son of Zebedee — biblical — beheaded in Jerusalem 44ceThomas — by tradition — speared in either India or Persia 52ce or beheaded or shot by arrows while at prayerJames — brother of Jesus — by tradition - thrown from pinnacle of the temple, survived and beat to death in either 62 or 66ceJames — son of Alphaeus — by tradition — martyred in Egypt, crucified in Syria, stoned in Jerusalem, 62 or 60ce, one source told the same story of James brother of Jesus for this JamesPhilip — by tradition — either died a natural death or was martyred in Hieropolis in Turkey in 52 or 54ce. Possibly flogged, imprisoned and crucifiedThaddaeus — my tradition — martyred w/ Simon in Persia or Turkey possibly Mt Ararat by either arrows, a lance, crucifixion or beaten (or a combination) 72ceSimon the Zealot — by tradition — either crucified or hacked to death or sawn in two in either Persia, Georgia, Iberia, Samaria or Lincolnshire in either 61 or 74ceAndrew — by tradition — was either crucified or bound to death in Asia Minor in either 74ce or on November 30, 60ceJudas Iscariot — biblical — either hanged himself or fell and burst open 34ceBartholomew — by tradition — whipped to death, flayed and beheaded, beaten and crucified and beheaded, or just speared in either Armenia, Russia or India 52ceAs you can see, I found no real references for any of this information. If anyone has some historical reference for any of the reported deaths, I would be interested in reading it. edited to add last paragraph------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato[This message has been edited by Asgara, 11-28-2003]

Actually Ragnorok, I believe I did ask some questions. I asked which of these four accounts is the True account. I also asked if anyone had any real, historic references pertaining to the deaths of the apostles.If one proof of the truth of the resurrection is that "all the apostles died a martyr's death for their belief in the truth", then where is the information about these deaths coming from, and which truth did they die for?It seems amazing to me that four "eyewitnesses" could tell such different stories. If I was writing an account of the most important thing that had ever happened to me, I think I could remember who told me, where and when I saw the proof, who I was with at the time.------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Except for a few things. Most of the "details" are contradictory, and no one I could find listed where these stories came from. In some instances one site would list some terrible death for a particular apostle, another would say no references to this person were found out of a few lines in the bible, and yet another would say the apostle died a natural death.As for Ockham's Razor, with what I found the simplest thing to say would be "No one knows", NOT "All the apostles died a horrible martyr's death for their belief."------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Hi Jazz, I don't think that is the point I was making at all. But, if the four major U.S. players in the war each wrote an account of the meeting where the decision to go to Iraq was made, I would expect the issues that all were privy to, to be essentially the same. If they weren't, I would believe one or more of them to be lying. I would believe that they would remember who was there, who basically said what, who agreed, who disagreed, etc. I guess I don't.------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Hi Jazz, I would be interested in just exactly what you think this evidence is. If you could list this evidence, I would be greatful.------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

First off Willow, I started this thread as a poster, not as a moderator. Second, I was not the one to change you topic name. Thirdly, I had asked some questions in the other thread that I wanted answers to, so I started this thread. Your name was put on to let you know that I was looking for answers from you. Fourthly, your arrogant posts with accusation of censorship were answered by MANY people, you are the one who refused to discuss the issue rationally.In no way was I attempting to speak for you, I was speaking for myself.."directed" to you. If you can't respond in a polite way, then I will assume that you have no response.------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Hopefully, that garbage is over now. Can we get back to my questions in the first two posts?Are any Xians going to weigh in with their opinion of which "truth" is the true one? Does anyone have any historical and timely references for the deaths of the apostles?------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Hi Amlodhi,As the original poster of this thread, I just wanted to add that this is exactly what I was looking for. In case Tokyojim hasn't read the entire thread, here is the original post concerning the martyrdom of the apostles...http://EvC Forum: Truth of resurrection and death of the apostles (for Willowtree) -->EvC Forum: Truth of resurrection and death of the apostles (for Willowtree)------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Willow,Thank you for finally telling me your "evidence". It isn't what I initially asked for but I do see what you are saying. I don't agree that it is "checkmate" evidence but I do see where you are coming from.I'm not going to debate the issue with you anymore, but I do want to point out that several of the men listed in my initial question http://EvC Forum: Truth of resurrection and death of the apostles (for Willowtree) had stories attached to their deaths that listed natural causes.I still have nothing except tradition to tell me how, when, or where any of them died. That was my point in starting this thread. I wanted to know if anyone had any actual evidence OTHER than tradition. Though at one point you had claimed to "know", I now see that you don't really.I do understand your point that the common denominator seems to be martyrdom, but repeating a story many times does not make this story true.I will give you your point though, but will refrain from admitting it to be "checkmate" evidence. It seems closer to "stalemate".Thank you again Willow.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

Us??

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"