Innocents in Hell, Guilty in Heaven?

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Hypotheticals Rei.

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How is #1 in Rei's first post a hypothetical? Those people had no knowledge of Christ, and therefore could not possibly accept him, as is required by the Bible.

I just read it over, and I assume that this is what you mean:

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For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

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(Please correct me if I'm wrong.)And this is well and good as far as knowledge of God goes. But how is a person who has never heard of Christ supposed to know about his sacrfice on the cross? How are they to know of specific rituals, such as baptism, or confession? How are they supposed to know about original sin in the first place?The very fact that the Bible exists (if we take it at face value) is because God felt the need to give the world specific instructions for salvation. The invisible things were not enough.Even if we assume that the invisibles things could help a person reach salvation through Christ if they looked hard enough, wouldn't the existence of the Bible be giving something of an unfair advantage to certain people? Why do they get a shortcut to this knowledge? Is God playing favorites?[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 11-25-2003]

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Dan, confirm or deny the rumors: are you the artist behind the webcomic 'Real Life'? Inquiring minds want to know.

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Deny. I was the co-publisher of E-volution (before it folded), an editor for Savant (before it folded), a strip cartoonist for Small Press Magazine (sigh... before it folded), and recently had a piece on Modern Tales: Longplay. But that's the extent of the interaction between me, comics, and the web.[EDIT: I tell a lie. I just checked comixpedia, and it looks like they wound up using my article. So there's another.]

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Dan, I did not mean that verse specifically, I meant the passage that begins a little before that verse and goes on, pretty much, until the end of the chapter.

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Fair enough. I'll take some time to go over Romans a bit more in-depth before your next post, and we can go from there.[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 11-25-2003]

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sorry about the mis-applied rumor there by the way

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That's cool. Normally I get people asking me if I'm related to Daniel Radcliffe, which is really annoying.If I don't respond too quick, it's because I'm going away on vacation tomorrow morning. But I will get to posts when I get back...

Russ:As I told you earlier, you clearly put a lot of thought into your post. I plan to do you the same courtesy, but my schedule for the next few days may mean that my post won't come until Friday or Saturday. Not meaning to slight, just to put the same effort into my own post that you put into yours.

Russ:I've just today gotten back to the internet. A reply is forthcoming, honest.

Okay, let's start things up.

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No. Romans 2:11 says "For there is no respect of persons with God." That means that God never respects one person over another, or plays favorites.

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Then I have to ask how you would reconcile this passage with the fact that some people, by benefit of having been taught Christianity from birth, clearly have a leg up as far as Christian salvation goes.It's a difficult road to say that something is not the case because God says it isn't. In this case, his actions would seem to contradict his words.

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However, God, being the Creator of all existence and the only omnipotent and omniscient One, is able to act in ways that I, a created being, do not understand, nor can I explain. Please note that I dealt with this quote first rather than last to specifically avoid the idea that I am washing away reason with "only God knows". However, it is a fact and a statement of scripture:
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than
your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9

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For the purposes of this conversation though, I think we do have to stick to the reasoning capacity of humans. God may well understand it all in heaven, but we still have to deal with it on Earth.

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There is a common assumption that unless some person of European descent goes to a foreign country with a Bible in hand, that country is "without hope" from a Christian perspective. Let me begin by assuring you the Bible never suggests at any such idea. Instead, it states repeatedly that God has been revealing Himself to mankind since the beginning of creation.

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The issue, however, is not one of knowing God. If that were the case, then any religion at all would get you into heaven, wouldn't it? The problem is one of worshipping God in the correct way.As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, a major tenet of Christianity is the idea that one must accept Christ, and appreciate his sacrifice on the cross in order to reach heaven. The sacrifice of Christ is not something that can be gleaned by examining nature, and contemplating God's work. If it was, why would the sacrifice (and its subsequent preaching) have had to take place at all? Wouldn't mere contemplation of the world be enough?The specific ritual of baptism would seem to be required as well. How can original sin be washed away if the story of Genesis is unknown?

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If God is so omnipotent that He can reveal Himself in such an absolute way to people, why is the entire world not Christian? The answer is human choice.

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But where is the choice, if the options are unknown?Imagine I invite you over for dinner, and I phone you up ahead of time and say, "We have hamburgers for dinner. Sound good?" You say okay, and you come over. When you arrive, I drop a moldy, maggot-infested hamburger on your plate, lean in real close, and say "you chose poorly."Would it have killed me to tell you that the hamburger was moldy, and that I had perfectly good chicken in the fridge? A choice without all the facts isn't much of a choice at all.Let me elaborate on the skywriting metaphor you presented. Yes, skywriting in spanish over Mexico would certainly seem to be how God has communicated with those who have read the Bible. But to those who have not had access to the specific facts contained within, it's like living in China and being told, "what?!?! I wrote huge letters all over the skies in Mexico! Excuse me if you didn't see 'em!"

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The question raised here is can invisible things lead a person to knowledge of Christ? The answer is an absolute yes. I can say this with authority because the pinnacle of God’s act of revealing Himself to mankind took place when He came to the earth as Jesus Christ.

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You might need to slow me down and walk through this one again, Russ. The life of Jesus Christ is not an invisible thing; it is, if accepted as divine, a concrete display of God's desires.This might well be the crux of our disagreement. How is it possible for a person to come to specific knowledge of Christ's sacrifice without being told about his life, or even that he existed? Not a general knowledge of God, as is promised in Romans, but the specific information required for admission to heaven?[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 12-03-2003]

That's cool. Real world stuff should always take precedence over the internet.

Now it's my turn to take a couple days. Sit tight, I'll be back with a response!