Innocents in Hell, Guilty in Heaven?

I hesitate to post this at all simply because I am unsure as to whether there is a genuine search for information or not. If there is no desire to truly search into the matter then what is going on seems to be simple antagonism. But as I said, I am unsure of what the exact nature of this line of questioning is. So let me present a question.Would the two of you, and I mean Rei & Dan Caroll specifically and exclusively, look into Romans chapter 1 for me before continuing. I would really like it if you could read it from a King James Version, since that is what I will be discussing from. And the point, which you probably understand, is not to pass off your request with a suggestion to just go read something, but rather to begin the answering and posting of questions with a specific text in mind instead of hypothetical postulations, however valid they could potentially be.Well, this is my meager request which I would be grateful to see you respond to, or you could ignore it. Just know that I am asking in the interest of pursuing a real conversation about this and not to get into some kind of yelling match.Russ[edited for grammatical correction][This message has been edited by apostolos, 11-25-2003]

First some fluff, then the stuff.Brian, your post gave me a brief coronary. Good thing there was a doctor nearby to revive me. Seriously, I am very impressed with the accuracy your post contained dealing with the salvation of those who have led seeming more wicked lives than the rest of humanity. One correction to those dying without hearing: Christ's descending and preaching is actually something that took place and was never repeated. However, this really is a point of soteriology in the context of the Old Covenant.Dan, confirm or deny the rumors: are you the artist behind the webcomic 'Real Life'? Inquiring minds want to know.Ok. Time to get serious. Dan, I did not mean that verse specifically, I meant the passage that begins a little before that verse and goes on, pretty much, until the end of the chapter. Also, I was not picking out one thought to dismiss your (and Rei's) arguments. I was merely trying to establish a scriptural launchpad for the discussion. And as much as I would like to start with that one statement, I can not because the whole idea I am hinting at has a context larger than the one verse. It does seem to me that your questions are sincere and not mere antagonism, which I greatly appreciate. So I hope you will understand that I am responding in like manner. I am not trying to kill time or duck the questions or any such thing. I simply want to approach this in an orderly fashion.I have been a little busy due to some academic constraints, but if you would examine the passage (Romans 1:16-32), then I assure you I will do my part and make my initial post at some point in the not too distant future of today. (This is, of course, assuming that Rei doesn't bring up any questions or comments that need to be dealt with before beginning formally)And as a last note, I do not mean to provoke the two of you (Rei and Dan), nor do I seek to exclude anyone else from commenting. I simply desire to have this discussion be reasonable and well ordered as opposed to some of the caustic mud fights that I have seen on this site so far. Again, I will make my initial post within the next 5+/- hours. Thank your for your patience.Russ

Rei,I am not trying to claim anything yet, that was the subject matter of post #11. I am merely trying to set up a situation in which we can discusss the issue of God's revelation in specific consideration of cultures we would say do not have the Bible. I have known other christians to present their case antagonistically on this site, and I have known the rebutters to do the very same. That is what I am trying to avoid. So instead then, I would like to look at this reasonably, taking the scripture as a starting off point.As far as what native people are "fully aware of", let me say that I can only go to statements in the word of God for an absolute perspective on what they fully know, anything beyond that is mere speculation. Unless of course I go to one of those locales to personally investigate and report my findings in a fair way. And since no one really wants to front me several hundred dollars for the plane ticket, nor do they desire to postpone the debate for several months, I was hoping we could begin by just sticking to what the Bible says about it. (the ticket part was my attempt at humor, not a biting remark)So then I present the same thing I said to Dan (sorry about the mis-applied rumor there by the way) and that is that I will make my initial post in a little while (I still have a little reading to do). In the meantime, if you (and anyone else interested, but you and Dan specifically) could review Romans 1:16-32 in the King James Version of the Bible it would assure me that we are all at least starting on the same page. Again, I expect to post in no more than 4 hrs tops.RussPostscript - I am not going to be dealing with the 2nd issue REIsed in the first post (couldn't resist the pun, sorry). This is simply because I think Brian has covered the issue well enough for now.[This message has been edited by apostolos, 11-25-2003]

I am replying to the admin's post only because I am unaware of how to post without making it a reply. But since I did let me make a statement. I formally and vehemently denounce and reject any of the conclusions preceeding this post (specifically those in #16). Although I must admit this stems from a paranoia of pointy haired people.Ok, time to get serious. No. Romans 2:11 says "For there is no respect of persons with God." That means that God never respects one person over another, or plays favorites. However, God, being the Creator of all existence and the only omnipotent and omniscient One, is able to act in ways that I, a created being, do not understand, nor can I explain. Please note that I dealt with this quote first rather than last to specifically avoid the idea that I am washing away reason with "only God knows". However, it is a fact and a statement of scripture:
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than
your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9Now lets jump right into it, having set the perspective. There is a common assumption that unless some person of European descent goes to a foreign country with a Bible in hand, that country is "without hope" from a Christian perspective. Let me begin by assuring you the Bible never suggests at any such idea. Instead, it states repeatedly that God has been revealing Himself to mankind since the beginning of creation. Since I asked for the limitation to Romans 1:16-32, I will keep my comments within that passage.I am not going to quote the whole passage, but I do want to start by hitting on a few points. Verse 19 states:
"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God
hath shewed it unto them."
This verse shows that God is fully able to inform diverse people groups about Himself. So it understood that this is referencing all people and not one specific group, let me say that there are many other passages in the Bible which state the same basic truth. While I am prepared to make comments on some of them, the ones I have in mind do not fall in our established context, so I will withhold them for now. The verse Dan alluded to shows the method that is used to establish a foundation in the mind of a person for the existence and authority of God. To be thorough, let me say that the eternal power and Godhead of God are truths evident from the creation that surround us as humans every day and it is that constant exposure to God’s revealing himself that lays the groundwork for any portion of His word to be received.Now as to the question of how much these people knew, let me reference again the verse you brought up. It says this revelation of God is clearly seen, being understood. Furthermore, verse 21 says they knew God. I will make an example by illustration, but understand the illustration will ultimately break down at some point. If God were to write letters in the sky over Mexico in warning, but wrote them in Arabic, the message would be clearly seen, but not understood. So my point is that this verse states that the revelation is both clearly seen and understood. This is where the discrepancy enters.If God is so omnipotent that He can reveal Himself in such an absolute way to people, why is the entire world not Christian? The answer is human choice. Certainly God did not have to give people a choice and could force their behavior, but that would violate God’s righteousness. Instead God allows humanity to make its own decisions on an individual basis. This choice is either to respond to the revelation of God by Himself, or to reject it and Him. So in short, the whole world could be Christian but, largely, it chooses not to be. Let me give Matthew 7:13-14 as a supporting text but refrain from commenting on it at this time. I have left off part of this sentence because I dealt with it earlier. The question raised here is can invisible things lead a person to knowledge of Christ? The answer is an absolute yes. I can say this with authority because the pinnacle of God’s act of revealing Himself to mankind took place when He came to the earth as Jesus Christ. I am not stretching outside of context on this point. Verse 16 declares the gospel of Christ to be the power of God unto salvation, and verse 17 says that therein is the righteousness of God revealed. So my point here is to say that ultimate destination on the path of revelation that God leads each human along is the knowledge of Himself, Jesus Christ. However, much like any other road that exists, there are some wrong turns along the way.Without stretching this into a long-winded post (and I realize I may be too late now) let me say that there is a clear pattern repeated in all of scripture. That pattern is that God presents Himself to mankind and they choose to either accept or reject Him. The only time God presents further revealed truth about Himself is when there has been a previous acceptance of the truth given. By brief example let me say that Christ came to the Jews in the gospels and he did not minister to any gentiles, except those who demonstrated an established belief in God to some degree and a desire to know more. Please lets not get off on how Christ behaved among the Jews at that time in regard to God’s revelation because it is slightly different. To say anymore would be to stray off topic.On a closing note I want to call attention to verses 19-22. With the statements of Romans 1 thus far, and the rest of scripture, it is established that God reveals Himself to mankind by verse 19. In that verse it begins dealing with a specific group of people, namely any person rejecting God. The beginning of this is God’s clear revelation of Himself to that person. Again note the word known. The action that follows this, in v20 & 21, is the declaration of their own awareness of God. I want to point out two statements quickly. Without excuse, in verse 20, would certainly be an unfair statement from God unless they were in fact without one. This is established in the fact that they know God and reject Him. Also verse 21, beginning with because shows the action that is their response to be nothing else but rejection and rebellion against the God that created them. This is continued in verse 22 and 23 as they cease from mere rejection of God and turn to establishing other gods in various forms (themselves, humanoids, animals, etc.). Verse 24 is where God responds to their rejection of Him and allows them to go their own way. The end result of this person who has turned from God is seen in verses 24-32 to be not very good.Now I am going to close with a simple answer. I am afraid it may cause more confusion but even I am getting a little nervous about the length of this post. The deal is that God's first desire is to reveal Himself to humanity and that desire of His far exceeds any level of desire we could ever have for anything. The way that God reveals himself to man is of such nature that we must accept what He reveals to us before He reveals more. The ultimate end of that revelation is Jesus Christ. Whenever a person responds to the truth God provides for them, He is always faithful to provide more. Again, this truth is stated in this passage as well as many others in the Bible. The converse to this statement seems to be also true. When a person rejects God, He only allows them to go so far before He gives them up.My hope is that I have been clear (if not just ask) and that I have provided an adequate base of scripture to start this discussion from. If some part of my statement has been unclear please let me know so I can make adjustments (of a much shorter nature).Russ

white robes,
Concerning the two points raised in post #1, if you will review the thread, you will see that the second was answered adequately enough in post #10 (unless someone raises an additional question). The first point made in post #1 is beginning to be dealt with. My suggestion would be this: since I have made a lengthy post on the matter from a biblical perspective already, I think it is only fair to wait for someone from the opposing side to make some kind of response or comment. Please do not take this as a disinterest in your point. I just want to encourage orderliness in this discussion.Dan,
I appreciate your desire to be thorough in this matter and look forward to anything you have to put forth. Hope you have (had?) a nice Thanksgiving.Russ

Dan,Take your time. I would rather have a thought out response than a rushed one. I had been thinking about the replies before yours but wanted to wait until I at least heard from you before making a response.Again, look forward to hearing what you have to say.Russ

I apologize for the long delay in posting. I have been hit by finals week somewhat unprepared. I am determined to post this week (somehow). Again, sorry for the delay.Russ

To all,I would like to apologize for my delayed response. I have given Dan's post much thought over the past couple of days. I could have responded earlier, I simply let some things get in the way. But now I would like to respond to the question that Dan raised because I think it is very relevant to the discussion. I realize that he raised more than one questions. However, Dan, what you are asking, and I hope I can demonstrate this clearly, is really concerning a singular issue.To begin, let me address the "some people have a leg up" reply to my comment from Romans 2:11. It does seem that there is some advantage to the American or person of other nationality who lives in a country where "christian" churches abound. Yet this is, in truth, a misconception. The error takes place on the most basic level of understanding and finds its root in a sort of humanistic elitism. The thought is that God has been good to some and not good to others. This, however, violates the very character of God as well as the design He has put in place for all of His creation. Now I am going to seem to change tracks, but I am really just shifting gears and still dealing with the one thought.Dan, you commented on getting to Heaven and suggested that the issue is worshipping God the right way. You also seemed to think that baptism is a requirement to wash away original sin. I want to tell you that both of these ideas are not consistent with the scriptures because they promote religion. The basic commonality between all religions is a system of works that will provide some redemption of the human soul. This can not logically be associated with the Bible because the scriptures are very clear that there is no kind of work a man can do to redeem himself from a sinful state. Looking again at our agreed context, it is clear that humanity finds itself to be sinners. There is a clear list of sinful behavior in Romans 1:29-32. And this list is not what makes a person sin-filled. Rather, these are 25 things set forth as an example of the behavior of a person who is dwelling in sin. So these specific sins do not make a person a sinner. Instead they are the sinful outworking of the iniquity that is already in their soul.So what then is that one issue which is the very nucleus of a life of faith? It is knowing Him who is the source of faith, the only true God who is the Creator and LORD of all. Could, then, any religion get you into heaven? No. It has already been stated that a system of works will never be sufficient, no matter how seemingly righteous it is. Furthermore, the god that religions know and equate to the only true God and Father of the LORD Jesus Christ is not the same as the God of Heaven. Their god and the God are not in agreeance in the most basic elements of character. Even further removed is the suggested design for life by their god and that which is given by the God of the Bible. Again, I will point to our context of Romans 1:16-3 as a proof text, and if I may I would also like to include verses 1-7 of the same chapter.Now to deal with the whole ball of twine let me begin by saying you are right when you say the sacrifice of Christ is something that must be known. God, who, again, desires to have all people know Him with an intense desire that could not be described with any words that would do it justice, has done everything possible to ensure a knowledge of Jesus Christ is ultimately available to all. I must stress here that no person in creation ever went to hell without having an adequate opportunity to respond to God first. And while the initial point you raised in post #34 seems to be valid, it is based on one of two unscriptural ideas.The first, and the point of invalidation, is that God presents Himself to everyone in the exact same manner in regards to situational specifics. This is untrue and clearly declared to be so in the Bible. The LORD has designed every human being as a specific individual and uses what is necessary to reach them. This always begins with the knowledge of His design over creation. If this is accepted and believed, He then provides more truth of Himself to lead that person to the culmination of revelation, which is the very person of Jesus Christ.The second erroneous idea is that God has decided for Himself who will get to Heaven and who will not, and then proceeds to place people in proximity to or distant from the gospel. To say this is elitism and a putrid idea wholly unsupported by the bible is understating the matter. This line of thinking is called Calvinism, and while it is somewhat relevant to the discussion, I would prefer to not see the discussion turned off on this point simply because it will ultimately detract from the main issue.I would like to begin my conclusion with a question that you asked me. This is the answer(and please understand that any seeming redundancy is for emphasis): From the first moment that Adam breathed the breath of God and became a living soul, the LORD has sought to bring all people into a deeply intimate knowledge of Himself as Creator. This began with the foundational revelation of His design in all of creation, which revelation is available for acceptance to all people at all times. Upon this revelation He dispensed subsequent revelation taking its form in dreams, visions, His own voice, heavenly messengers, the prophets of old, the law given to Moses and the Jews, and His mastery over every set of circumstances that exists. All of this outward expression of the person of God points to the same end. This end was clearly visible to the Jews and Gentiles in the Old Covenant and is to us also. That end is the finished work of God come to earth, Jesus Christ, who took on the very penalty for sin that separated humanity from Himself so that for all time the only barrier between God and man would be man's own will. Any acceptance of revelation from God will first lead to the knowledge of His existence, and second to the understanding that the individual in question is indeed a sinner needing to have his sins washed away.The only reason any person can attempt to suggest that they have no sin is because they have denied the very person of God. Furthermore, this does not actually ever take place because the conviction over sin that the Holy Spirit places on a person's heart is present in the hardest of unbelievers. Unfortunately, this conviction is ignored through self-justification, or removing God and calling it the conscience, or attempting to reason away the guilt all together. Conversely, when a person recognizes the existence of the Creator and LORD God, and agrees with Him they they are a sin-sick human needing forgiveness from Him alone who is able to grant it, then the LORD always sends specific knowledge of the finished work of Christ.I will close with a brief illustration which is an attempt to correct the burger analogy. Imagine that the LORD of Heaven and Earth came to you in physical form and presented to you a present in a box. He does not force you to take it but extends it for you to take from His hand. Although you do not know what the gift is, you must conclude it is a good gift because "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all." (I John 1:5) So then, accepting Him personally (because you did not run from Him when He approached you) and His gift (if you take it from His hand), you open the box to find adoption papers with your name at the top and the name of Jesus Christ signed at the bottom in blood (John 1:12). This is the truth. You do not deserve the gift but instead punishment for sin. But God, loving you more than you love yourself, "gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)Russ

I already answered your first question in both of my posts. I also answered your second question in my most recent one. But for clarification let me say that if you will review both of my lengthy posts you will see that great multitudes of people had God revealed to them, not necessarily the specific person and work of Christ. This is due to the progressive revelation that God uses to reach all people. To answer you, let me say there are many books, like 'Peace Child' and 'Eternity In Their Hearts', which tell the story of tribes who had some understanding of God but their knowledge was not complete until one day (as if by coincedence but in truth by divine control) a missionary went to them only to find out that they had been waiting years to hear the truth of the Bible. There is a video called Ee-Tau (I think) which shows this exact thing happening. In addition to this, there is no evidence to suggest that they multitudes have never heard when the groups in question have perfectly followed the pattern God sets forth in Romans 1:16-32. In regards to Europe and America, just because people know the right words to say and say that they believe certain things does not in fact mean that they have accepted the person of Jesus Christ as savior. I tell you in truth that there very many people in this country fulfilling some kind of religious duty in the name of Christ who have never truly accepted the person of God and received salvation through Jesus Christ.So is the playing field level? Yes, absolutely. It only appears to not be so when you are standing with your head crooked in one direction or another instead of straight like it was designed to be for normal viewing, figuratively speaking of course.Russ
[edited to correct syntax error]A final note on Calvinism: It is an erroneous theological system supposed to be based on scripture. However, every proof text of the Calvinist is in fact a misrepresentation of that passage of scripture and of the character of God. If you think that I am amiss in my view, then please take up the matter with Dave Hunt or His book 'What Love Is This?'. I do not see further discussion of such an illogical system adding to this conversation and will have no further input on it.[This message has been edited by apostolos, 12-09-2003]

Rei, The established context for this discussion is the book of Romans chapter 1, verses 16-32. In that passage it describes people who have rejected God and turned to what some call animism, which is the exact practice of the native indians present in America before the English got here. Also, if you are really seeking the answer to your questions, then I can tell you that I put forth information dealing with those specific points in both of my long posts. If I have failed to provide enough information in either post, then it is up to you to show me where my post is inadequate. You haven't done that yet, you have only repeated your questions. So again, I ask you to please review what has already been put forth or show me where I have not provided sufficient information.Russ

This post has been overhauled to appease the powers that be and quell their wrath. Russ[edited for revision to prevent Adminnemooseus from saying 'off wif 'is 'ed][This message has been edited by apostolos, 12-11-2003][This message has been edited by apostolos, 12-12-2003]