Who has the best avatar?

Hehe, thanks buz It was fun to make.You know, you need an avatar, too ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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Excuse me?

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I seem to recall an admonishment to AZ about "yid" and "nig."

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"Gay"?

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What's wrong with that? I would have used an even more slang term for the woman in that avatar. ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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What's wrong with that?

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Because calling someone "gay" as an insult is inappropriate. It implies that there is something wrong with being gay.

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Surely you're not implying that the picture in the avatar has sex only with other pictures, are you? That the picture is a scene of two people of the same sex being romantic?

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I'll put it this way: if I saw someone who looked like that in person, I'd probably think she was a lesbian. Athletic-looking woman in a fairly butch helmet, doing archery in full body armor?It's not an insult, it's a statement.P.S. - if you knew any members of the GLBT community, you'd know that we have no problem with the use of the terms "fag" and "dyke". We're reclaiming them; we use them ourselves.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 12-01-2003]

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What makes you think I'm not gay?

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You know, I don't really care whether you are or not, although the fact that you got offended by the use of the term "gay" and the fact that you're offended by the words "dyke" and "fag" (and even brought them up as examples of offensive words) indicates that you are not. Just as if you had started talking about evolution as "humans evolving from monkeys" one would assume that you have little familiarity with evolution, what you are stating indicates that you have little familiarity with the GLBT community, merely just familiariity with GLBT issues. There's nothing wrong with that, but the point is that you should learn not to be offended by such terms.

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Whether or not I am gay has nothing to do with the validity of my arguments.

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"Duh."

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Athletic-looking woman in a fairly butch helmet, doing archery in full body armor?

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Have you ever played any fantasy role-playing games? That picture looks like it got scanned off of some D&D book.

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There's a reason that the male knights are dressed to the eyebrows in armor while the female warriors seem never to be able to scrape together enough cash to afford something more than a couple of solid metal pasties and a chain loincloth...

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In case you're not able to see, she is not wearing just a tiny bit of armor, she's covered in heavy armor plating. We have an athletic woman dressed to the eyebrows in thick armor... if she had short hair, there'd be no doubt in my mind. You can call "the intent of the artist" all you want, but if I saw someone who looked like that in real life, I'd think she was a dyke.

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and the fact that she's at least a C cup.

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So's my partner. This gal is a lot more butch than her, too. Your point?

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It's not an insult, it's a statement.

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Right...Brian wasn't insulting AZ.

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Why don't you ask him?And why are you offended by the words "dyke" and "fag"?

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I don't see how you're getting this "armor = gay" equasion.

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It's more of the athletic, warrior look Neither is the armor that she is wearing particularly femmy. I was also pointing out that Rrhain was wrong, the picture does not show a scantily clad woman, it shows a woman clad to the eyebrows. The woman in the picture is quite butch. As I mentioned, if she had short hair (you can't tell from the picture whether she does or not), there would be no doubt in my mind.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 12-02-2003]

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Neither is the armor that she is wearing particularly femmy.

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Sure it is. Yeah, it's not a mail bikini, but it's rather ornate and decorated.

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Yes, it's ornate. So was what gladiators and roman troops on parade wore:Even ignoring that armor itself is rather butch (it implies a more aggressive, tough person), the decor is not feminine.

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The woman in the picture is quite butch.

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Are you kidding? She's an elf!

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... and?

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if anything she's pretty femme. Even short hair wouldn't make her butch.

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You've got to be kidding. A female warrior, clad in full armor and in combat, not butch?

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She looks way more like Anne Heche than Ellen DeGeneres. Femme, totally. Honestly I just don't see how you can look at that picture and see a mannish woman.

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Gee, could it possibly be the full body armor, the taking part in physical combat... what's next, are you going to describe female weight lifters as being femmes?

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I see a feminine warrior

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That's almost an oxymoron. Feminine != aggressive. Warriors are aggressive.

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in feminine armor.

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You probably think that the Romans were flaming, then.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 12-02-2003]

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You've got to be kidding. A female warrior, clad in full armor and in combat, not butch?

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Of course. Why would wearing armor affect your charisma score?

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Ah. So, to you, butch is some sort of degrading term.

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If you put Nicole Kidman in goalie's gear, she doesn't get butch.

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She becomes more butch in appearence. Look, do you know what "butch" means? A woman dresses in a dress with long hair and a purse, she's going to look femmy. A woman dresses in work jeans, a white undershirt and a flannel, she's going to look butch. Anywhere in between, you'll probably end up with a bit of a soft butch.OOC, have you ever been to a gay club, or hung out with any lesbians or F2Ms?

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Gee, could it possibly be the full body armor, the taking part in physical combat... what's next, are you going to describe female weight lifters as being femmes?

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No. Are you going to describe all female athletes as being butch?

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Athleticism is one thing that makes a person appear more butch. Short hair is another. Style of dress is another. There are many traits that lead to a person looking butch.And, contrary to what you're considering, the appearance of the face is not among them (unless the woman is using makeup or something, which is extremely femmy). Many butch gals have quite attractive faces.

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That's kind of what it comes down to. Where I'm from, women can put on armor, bend a bow, and wield a sword, and there's nothing especially butch about it.

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(sarcasm)Odd, I've never been out of this solar system. (/sarcasm)Seriously, though, to remain appearing equally femmy in full armor and wielding a sword, you'd need to hold the sword like you're afraid of it, and wear low cut armor, have long hair flowing out the back, etc to compensate. "Butch" appearence involves outward features and actions that are stereotypically masculine. Armor and weaponry is most definitely a stereotypically masculine trait (even more than short hair, really). Would you consider a woman wearing a tuxedo still equally femmy? What about one working on a transmission? These are all butch things. And again, I have to emphasize: Butch is not an insult! And a woman who normally behaves or appears quite feminine can behave or appear butch from time to time - few people remain *completely* pigeonholed into a stereotype.

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Feminine != aggressive.

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Not where I'm from. Maybe the ladies are a little tougher here in Minnesota.

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*blink* *blink*Since when is "aggressiveness" considered a feminine trait anywhere in the US?

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You probably think that the Romans were flaming, then.

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Why, nipples on the armor and such? Maybe I'm not a person that makes sweeping generalizations about people's sexuality based on what they're wearing? Just a thought.

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I wasn't accusing you of that - you're (probably inadvertently) changing the direction of conversation . I'll restate, in a direct question: Just a second ago you were arguing that elaborate, ornate armor is feminine. Now your stance is...?------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 12-02-2003]

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Ah. So, to you, butch is some sort of degrading term.

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In so much as it can be used to denigrate a woman who doesn't meet society's standards for femininity, yes, it is. I realize that in the GLBT community it's a slang term for lesbians who act "mannish", if you will.

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According to the merriam-webster dictionary (i.e., common usage) it means "very masculine in apperarance or manner". That's not just the GLBT use, that's what it means. It's not a denigration, it's a description. Also, it *is* relative to social standards. That's why it's not an insult - it's a *good* thing not to be a stereotype.You're arguing against the meaning of the word.

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OOC, have you ever been to a gay club, or hung out with any lesbians or F2Ms?

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I know a few lesbians, but they're not exactly into the whole gay scene. None of them use "butch" and "femme" like you're using. You're either butch, or you're femme. What you're wearing doesn't make a difference.

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No lesbians or F2Ms that I know use butch or femme as an absolute term. None. It is a relative term. Also, if you're referencing social or sexual roles with the use of "butch" or "femme", very few members of the GLBT community use it in that context at all any more.

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Odd, I've never been out of this solar system.

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You are aware that there's an international community of mediveal/fantasy reenactors, right? That they don armor, shoot arrows, and swordfight as a matter of course, right?

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That doesn't change either A) the standards of feminity and masculinity in this country, and B) the definition of the word.

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Seriously, though, to remain appearing equally femmy in full armor and wielding a sword, you'd need to hold the sword like you're afraid of it, and wear low cut armor, have long hair flowing out the back, etc to compensate.

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To you, I guess. I don't personally equate "femininity" with "weakness", not even in stereotype. Surely womanhood isn't that simplistic to you?

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It's funny that you state that in the same post that you show a picture of... a woman who is in armor, but is wearing low-cut armor, holding herself without a forward posture, and has... long hair!You just proved my point, Crash: that if a woman doesn't compensate, she looks more butch in armor. And once again, I feel compelled to point out that it's not an insult to be described as butch - it means that you're not a stereotype, which is a great thing. [quote]

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Would you consider a woman wearing a tuxedo still equally femmy?

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This tuxedo? Or this one?

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The left one. The right one is a feminine rip-off of a tuxedo. It's the equivalent of wearing low-cut armor to try and make a woman still look feminine (which the woman in the picture in question distinctly is not wearing).

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Since when is "aggressiveness" considered a feminine trait anywhere in the US?

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Like I said, in Minnesota, women are assertive, especially to service personel.

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I seriously doubt if you polled Minnesotans and asked "Is aggressiveness (A) a masculine trait, (B) a feminine trait, or (C) neither", you'd get the vast majority saying (A). Remember, this is the country where as many as 71% of Americans in some parts of the country answered yes to the statement "The father of the family must be the master in his own house." (the average was 49%).

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No, that's always been the point of the debate. Is a woman who wears armor most likely gay? Not on Planet Earth, or any other. Maybe in your world, though.

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No, that's not the point of the debate. The point of the debate is whether a woman who looks like *that* most likely gay. And I don't see any crowds in the background or indications that it was a "for show" event. [quote][quote]Just a second ago you were arguing that elaborate, ornate armor is feminine.

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And I still am.

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Ok, then, please answer the question: Were the Romans flaming? Do modern Americans even consider the elaborate armor decor of roman legionaries and gladiators feminine?

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But you're trying to imply that only a gay man would wear ornate clothing, or that only a lesbian would wear armor.

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Wrong. Not "only". If we operated on guarantees of sexuality, no GLBTs would ever hook up. But there are indicators. A deliberately masculine appearance or social role (such as a hardened warrior) is a good one.

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the fact that you're offended by the words "dyke" and "fag" (and even brought them up as examples of offensive words) indicates that you are not.

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Ri-i-i-i-ight.

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Because "dyke" and "fag" have never been used as insults.

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They are *not* insults in the GLBT community, we are reclaiming those words. We use them to each other, and a member of the GLBT community would be quite odd if they took offense at the use of them by a known GLBT-friendly person like Holmes.

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Go see a black stand-up comedian playing to a predominantly black audience, and often you'll hear "nigger" flying around left and right and nobody is getting upset. Everybody understands the context and there is no animosity. Change the context though, and even a black person can't say it without being problematic.

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Yes, some of them have been fairly bad about reclaimation - the point is that you don't get offended when others use it. That problem doesn't exist nearly as much in the GLBT community.

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You can't seriously be saying that "dyke" and "fag" have no negative connotations. Do I really need to show you the studies that "fag" is one of the most commonly heard taunts among school-aged children?

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They are used in a negative connotion. Holmes wasn't. And the key way to make it irrelevant is to not be offended by it, Rrhain. You're doing just the opposite.

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Pennsylvania Newspaper Slams "Fag Forest"

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You pick one line out of the entire article? The article was about the anti-gay tone of the article. They had a whopping sentence about the use of the word "fag", and didn't dwell on it at all.

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And then there's this from GLAADower 105.1 FM New York:

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Again, their problem is by far with the anti-gay content. GLAAD does occasionally denounce the use of the word (as with your other links), but virtually always when it's used in a distinctly anti-gay context. You generally end up finding "allies" dwelling on it more than GLBTs. And you'll almost never find a GLBT who has a problem with a person who isn't using it in an anti-gay context. Holmes distinctly wasn't using it in an anti-gay context.

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Are you telling me that GLAAD isn't representative of any gay people?

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On this issue, not the majority. We know that many people use it hatefully. But the majority realize that trying to stop people from using such terms, or being offended by such words, is the ideal way to make the problem worse. The best way is to reclaim. And we *do* use those words.

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What makes you think I'm not gay?

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I'll say it again: You're hung up on the words. You try too hard.By the way, Rrhain, that style of "what makes you think..." argument that you love to drag out gets old after a while. None of us are attacking you personally - why do you have to keep dragging yourself into the conversation?

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In case you're not able to see, she is not wearing just a tiny bit of armor, she's covered in heavy armor plating.

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Yes, I know.

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You do? Then why did you say:

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There's a reason that the male knights are dressed to the eyebrows in armor while the female warriors seem never to be able to scrape together enough cash to afford something more than a couple of solid metal pasties and a chain loincloth...and the fact that she's at least a C cup.

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?

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The point still remains. She's a character from a fantasy picture. She most likely was not drawn to appeal to lesbians but rather to straight, teenaged boys.

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I'm not talking about who she was drawn to appeal to. I'm talking about that if I ran into such a woman, I would give her better odds of being a lesbian than being straight (unless it was in a "costume" context as opposed to a reality context, which the picture does not appear indicative of).

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And why are you offended by the words "dyke" and "fag"?

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Because when they are usually used, they are not meant kindly. Not even among gay people.

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Not true. I once had a girl living with me who liked to jokingly sing "I'm a dyke, I'm a dyke, I'm a dyke dyke dyke..." (to the tune of... oh, what's that song they play when they start horse races...) when she was looking particularly butch before going out.

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Oh, the leading of the Pride parade by Dykes on Bikes receives rounds of applause,

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And why do you think they call it "Dykes on Bikes"... to insult themselves?Anyway, I'm off to dinner. Chat later!------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."