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| Author | Topic: Marxism vs Socialism vs Communism vs Totalitarianisms | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days)  Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Faith writes: Message 411: According to Marxist analysis, class conflict within capitalism arises due to intensifying contradictions between highly productive mechanized and socialized production performed by the proletariat, and private ownership and private appropriation of the surplus product in the form of surplus value (profit) by a small minority of private owners called the bourgeoisie. As the contradiction becomes apparent to the proletariat, social unrest between the two antagonistic classes intensifies, culminating in a social revolution. ...
Is that or is that not what we are seeing with increasing income inequality and increasing unrest in the US? Be honest ... replace bourgeoisie with 1%ers and proletariat with 99%ers. Proletariat, bourgeoisie, what quaint unreconstructed Marxism there. ... And how is this relevant to the increasing inequality and increasing unrest in the US with the 1%ers and the 99%ers? You do realize that denigrating the terminology is not a refutation of the argument but an indication of cognitive dissonance, yes?
... Marxist theory is not an "analysis" of capitalism, it's a caricature, a parody, a straw man, a stupid stupid case of pure theory that bears just about no relation to reality. ... Which is why the wikipedia article I quoted from is all full of smilies ... oh wait it wasn't. Nor was it from the Onion. Let me simplify it for you: conflict arises due to inequalities in the distribution of profit from work being done. As the inequality in distribution increases, and becomes increasingly apparent to the workers, when they are not being paid a fair share for their effort, social unrest between the taking and the making classes occurs and intensifies, culminating in a social revolution. ... Social revolution doesn't have to be bloody, as we have seen progress in this country made via non-violent protests, and we see evidence of social unrest in the Occupy movement, in the strikes for increased minimum wages, in states that raise minimum wages, and also in the Black Lives Matter protests that are about inequalities in justice between makers and takers. You can also review what Ghandi did in India. Such social revolution has also occurred in the past in the US with the labor riots in the 30's and there have been riots since the founding of the country between takers and makers.
... In reality, Marxism itself CREATES the "social unrest" it hypothesizes by going out and drumming it up, and it pushes aggressively for that supposedly spontaneous "social revolution." ... Gee, I didn't realize that these movements listed above were because the US is a marxist state ... even before Marx was born ... You ever try to get somebody to protest when they are happy with the way things are?
... It was aggressively promoted in Russia, it didn't just spontaneously arise from the "proletariat," ... You can't light a fire without fuel Faith. The people were unhappy, very unhappy ... they didn't needed to be goaded.
... and it was certainly idiotically promoted in the sixties in America ... Indeed, but talking about possibilities for better social equality doesn't necessarily mean that there were no people unhappy with the income inequalities at that time (and which is much worse now). There was a lot of social unrest in the sixties, but marxist (and maoist) ideologies were a rather minor element, not one fostering the unrest. Ideology is what the founding of the US was based on, ideology of freedom, liberty justice, equality and opportunity for all to pursue happiness.
... Marxism is a pack of lies that can only be violently and murderously forced on a society, which it always is. You haven't made the case that marxist ideology necessarily operates and ends this way. Claims are just opinions when they are not based on facts.
It is most possible that any current widening of the gap between rich and poor in the west is CAUSED BY Marxist style thinking, which we've been subjected to by the idiot left for decades now. ... WOW. I mean just WOW. Cognitive dissonance Faith? Is this how right wing thinking works? Income inequality is increasing, the liberal left is bad, therefore they are responsible for the growing income gap? Really?
The tax rate on those who are barely economically surviving to pay for the top-heavy socialist government entitlements is enough to sink the economic ship right there, making the poor poorer. The poor don't pay income tax -- they don't earn enough to "qualify" -- but the republican tax cuts to the rich mean that corporations do not pay taxes and that the rich takers pay minimum taxes on income they can't hide in tax shelters (which are unavailable to the normal citizen). The republican have been slashing welfare programs federally and in states, so less is available to the poor than before. Minimum wages have been stagnant for decades so $7/hr no longer provides a living wage, and republicans want to eliminate minimum wage not raise it ... and the liberals are responsible for the increasing economic gap???? Really???
Capitalism produces wealth, Marxism destroys it. ... Capitalism and (ideological) marxism distribute the benefits of production differently, capitalism concentrates it in the pockets of the takers and grudgingly eeks out as little as possible to give to the makers. Ideological marxism would distribute the profits equally. I'm not saying that equal distribution is necessarily better, just that this is what the ideology says -- and my claim is that such distribution has never been done in any national state on earth that I am aware of. It has been done in some communes, like the kibbutzes in Israel, but not on a national scale. Nor am I aware that all the kibbutzes and other communes declined into violent anarchy. But I do think that there is some middle ground, some mixing, that would be better than either alone. This mixing of ideologies in the government programs is behind the several successful social democracies in Europe.
... Capitalism when it produces huge monopolies needs to be restrained but that can be done by laws, also laws that protect the workers. You don't think we have enough of that? Such as regulations on banks and investment companies, progressive tax rates and laws like Dodd-Frank and the Glass Steagall Act of 1933? The ones the GOP are trying to gut and deregulate or repeal? Laws such as ones for minimum wage, mandatory overtime for all workers working more than 40 hours/week, freedom for workers to form and join unions, mandatory health and safety regulations for workers, anti-child labor laws etc etc etc ... which are under attack by the GOP and that were brought to you by unions, by people working together for their common good. So you might be able to argue that unions are also an expression of marxist ideology in the US that arose in response to the social unrest between the takers and the makers during the sometimes bloody protests for better working conditions and better wages. Allowing unions defused the conflict back then -- it was an evolution of the socio-economic system rather than an all out bloody revolution, and again it shows that your claim marxist ideology creates the unrest -- because that unrest predates the ideology -- and that it ends in violence and the destruction of wealth.
As usual, any social unrest due to the economic situation we're experiencing is trumped up, and many think the economic situation itself has been trumped up to destroy the nation. It has nothing to do with Capitalism. So the bank failure was created by liberal leftists intent on destroying the country ...  The foreclosing of mortgages on poor and low income people is just trumped up to destroy the country but doesn't really exist. Just because there are more empty houses from foreclosures than there are individual homeless people is not due to sound economic and social policy but some liberal conspiracy to destroy the country ... The loss of jobs because of the economic collapse is just a myth by liberals to destroy the country ... The fact that home loss, job loss, etc fall unequally on those least able to survive, on the poor and low income people does not create social unrest, it takes someone waving a red flag to make the unrest occur ...
You continue with more insane Marxist theory that bears no relation to reality. Perhaps I'll come back to it. Says the person who denies reality every day and on virtually every topic. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
You see Apple, IBM, General Motors field armies and shooting their competition? How about we look at Walmart and what it does to competition from local companies? Stores close and average income becomes depressed, workers have to rely on social programs to make ends meet.
Unregulated capitalism inevitably leads to repressive social structures that are closer to feudal kingdoms than free societies. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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