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Author Topic:   Does God demand equality?
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 46 of 60 (761830)
07-06-2015 7:41 AM


GOD: Mine Yours Or Ours?
GIA writes:

Does God demand equality?
My Gnostic Christian God demands equality of all peoples as a part of our Universalists beliefs.

Seeing as how this is a topic that Greatest I AM started, it follows that being on topic involves discussing how God--either as ourselves being the "only God we know" or GOD as defined by the poster and interpreted by the poster believes.

GIA writes:

It seems that Gods do demand equality.

To me, it seems that the God I believe in and serve demands obedience, communication through prayer, and honesty. Were I tio think about it, I believe that God expects me to treat others without regard to partiality. This is a bit hard for me to do since I have a human tendency to prefer certain types of people over other types of people.

GIA writes:

We, as individuals, are quite good and altruistic. This is quite apparent if one looks at the statistics of our progress as a people in other moral areas. It is our religions and other social institutions and governments that are evil, not the people, as many governing hierarchies have institutionalized misogyny in their written policies.

Jon has started a new topic, Is Christianity Evil? but he expects an evidence based conversation so I won't get a chance to wax poetic over there.

I suppose that my question--at this point--is to ask Greatest I AM whether people should be treated differently than they are treated.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Greatest I am, posted 07-06-2015 11:30 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 47 of 60 (761864)
07-06-2015 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
07-04-2015 6:52 PM


Re: more learning opportunities.
jar

We cannot ever get anywhere when you refuse to answer questions and only answer questions with questions.

If you need a savior, what have you done that deserves infinite punishment.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-04-2015 6:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 07-06-2015 10:54 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 60 (761865)
07-06-2015 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Greatest I am
07-06-2015 10:51 AM


Re: more learning opportunities.
GIA writes:

If you need a savior, what have you done that deserves infinite punishment.

Please point out where I said anything about infinite punishment or stop just making shit up.

I will gladly expand this lesson once you show you understand what I have presented so far.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Greatest I am, posted 07-06-2015 10:51 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Greatest I am, posted 07-06-2015 11:12 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 49 of 60 (761866)
07-06-2015 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
07-05-2015 8:49 AM


Re: Jesus As Savior & Scapegoat
Phat.

I understand d but then that would mean that your whole belief system is based on the supernatural and would begin with God showing us by his first judgement that there is somehow some justice in the punishing of the innocent instead of the guilty.

Do you think there is justice in the punishing of the innocent instead of the guilty?

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This quote shows just when God corrupted justice. Justice seeks to punish the guilty and not the innocent and God reversed that good legal and moral tenet to where he corrupted it by saying that the punishment of the innocent must be embraced for us to reach heaven.

It seems that Satan ruled heaven in that day as only a Satan would demand the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty.

Regards
DL

Phat
P.S. Did you know that the Jews who wrote Eden, have no Original sin concept.

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 07-05-2015 8:49 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 50 of 60 (761868)
07-06-2015 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
07-05-2015 9:04 AM


Re: more learning opportunities.
jar

And if you answered showing what you believe, people like me could actually communicate with people like you.

You are forever telling us we are wrong without showing us what you think is right.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 07-05-2015 9:04 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 07-06-2015 11:33 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 51 of 60 (761869)
07-06-2015 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by ringo
07-05-2015 2:20 PM


ringo

Correct as I have learned your style and am not interested in wasting my time.

I do not have that much of a life but do not want to waste what little of it I have.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 07-05-2015 2:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 52 of 60 (761871)
07-06-2015 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
07-06-2015 10:54 AM


Re: more learning opportunities.
jar

Read message 50.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 07-06-2015 10:54 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 53 of 60 (761872)
07-06-2015 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
07-06-2015 7:41 AM


Re: GOD: Mine Yours Or Ours?
Phat

"To me, it seems that the God I believe in and serve demands obedience,"

That is the common Christian dogma.

It is also Christian dogma that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. Especially mysterious when Christians are asking me to exonerate God of culpability for doing evil.

Which leads to my point.

How can you possibly know, given the unfathomable nature of God, what he wants you to obey?

I noted in you chat with jar that you are not sure of our fall in Eden and that indicates that you are not sure if A & E should have obeyed God's command to remain stupid and blind.

---------------

"I believe that God expects me to treat others without regard to partiality."

In this, we are one. Equality for all. Equality of opportunity and not equality of outcome.

-----------------

"This is a bit hard for me to do since I have a human tendency to prefer certain types of people over other types of people."

It is hard for all of us as that penchant seems to be hard wired into our genetic makeup.

Let me drop two links on this in case you did not see them.

http://www.cbsnews.com/...elp-unlock-the-origins-of-morality

http://www.upworthy.com/...neaks-in-when-you-least-expect-it

-------------

"I suppose that my question--at this point--is to ask Greatest I AM whether people should be treated differently than they are treated."

I see a lot of homophobia, misogyny and lack of equality of opportunity out here in the real world. That last link above showed a couple of good examples and there is a net full of such examples so yes, definitely yes, we should be changing our ways as to how we treat people.

Our instincts are tribal and we mostly see ourselves in our own little tribes, --- that are to discriminate against other tribes.

We have to let our instincts know that all humans are of value and that we should think of all of us as one huge global tribe. That is the only way to world peace. IMO.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 07-06-2015 7:41 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 60 (761873)
07-06-2015 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Greatest I am
07-06-2015 11:06 AM


Re: more learning opportunities.
Again, your ignorance is showing since I most certainly have explained many time what I believe is right and why I believe it is right.

But I will continue to try to educate you.

I believe there is a God that created all that is, seen and unseen.

I believe that there will be an afterlife.

I believe I will be judged and the Jesus will be the person judging me based on my behavior.

I know that I have and likely will never be able to do what I should do.

I believe that Jesus was God making a supreme sacrifice for us, not by His death (as I explained anyone born of woman will inevitably die) but by his life and teaching.

The sacrifice was God becoming man, a baby unable to focus or feed himself or control his bowels, as dirt ignorant as any newborn and as helpless, having to learn to walk or talk or go potty, suffering all the things we all suffer, teething, being different, mocked, bullied.

So I believe that while living among us Jesus was just man, not god/man, not some chimera but just a human.

What greater sacrifice could there be than a God who can do anything becoming just a man who can do nothing?

Now to try to address the actual topic which if you can remember is "Does God demand equality?" I believe there can be no right answer to an absurdly and poorly thought out question.

The Bible is filled with examples that are totally contradictory on that subject and if you wish further education we can proceed.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Greatest I am, posted 07-06-2015 11:06 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Greatest I am, posted 07-06-2015 12:02 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16362
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 55 of 60 (761878)
07-06-2015 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Greatest I am
07-06-2015 11:08 AM


Greatest I am writes:

I do not have that much of a life but do not want to waste what little of it I have.


If you have time to tell me you don't have time, you have time to back up your claim.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Greatest I am, posted 07-06-2015 11:08 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 56 of 60 (761883)
07-06-2015 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
07-06-2015 11:33 AM


Re: more learning opportunities.
jar

Proceed with my education.

What can anyone possibly do to warrant God refusing us heaven? What finite sin deserves infinite denial of heaven?

---------------

I also have a problem with placing my responsibility for my sins onto an innocent man or God.

I have an argument that needs refuting if your education of me is to continue.

Human sacrifice is evil and your God demanding one and accepting one is evil.

You trying to profit from that evil is evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?
If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 07-06-2015 11:33 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 07-06-2015 1:21 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 57 of 60 (761886)
07-06-2015 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
06-29-2015 8:24 PM


jar

So your denomination does not recognize the ten commandments. Right?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 06-29-2015 8:24 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 07-06-2015 1:22 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 60 (761908)
07-06-2015 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Greatest I am
07-06-2015 12:02 PM


Re: more learning opportunities.
GIA writes:

I have an argument that needs refuting if your education of me is to continue.

Human sacrifice is evil and your God demanding one and accepting one is evil.

You trying to profit from that evil is evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree.

As I have said, the first step is for you to convince me that you even can understand what I have already provided.

Please go back and reread what I have already posted in this thread where I have already addressed your assertion that really has absolutely nothing to do with the topic anyway.

Once you can demonstrate that you understand what I have already explained to you we can try to proceed but first I need to know you understand the basics.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Greatest I am, posted 07-06-2015 12:02 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 59 of 60 (761909)
07-06-2015 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Greatest I am
07-06-2015 12:09 PM


Yawn.

You do love trying to move the goal posts and misrepresent what people say.

Learn.

Which set of commandments?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Greatest I am, posted 07-06-2015 12:09 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Greatest I am, posted 07-06-2015 1:39 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 60 of 60 (761913)
07-06-2015 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
07-06-2015 1:22 PM


Perhaps some day we will be able to chat.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 07-06-2015 1:22 PM jar has not yet responded

    
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