|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,915 Year: 4,172/9,624 Month: 1,043/974 Week: 2/368 Day: 2/11 Hour: 1/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Another one that hurts | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
It's good to see that some American values haven't changed.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dogmafood Member (Idle past 379 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
|
If you believe it's always wrong to kill a non-combatant, you would oppose all war. OK then I am good with that. My point is simply that I don't know why we should be able to do things as a collective that we find to be immoral at the level of the individual. Or why we don't see the hypocrisy of suspending our principles of justice when we try to extract that justice from foreigners. Or the hypocrisy of accepting the killing of innocent people as a reasonable cost of retaliation for the killing of innocent people. I guess if you support drone strikes in Syria then you would support them in your own neighbourhood should there be a suspected killer on the loose? No? Edited by ProtoTypical, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
PT writes: OK then I am good with that. Fine, pacifism is an honourable, if naive, position.
My point is simply that I don't know why we should be able to do things as a collective that we find to be immoral at the level of the individual. Or why we don't see the hypocrisy of suspending our principles of justice when we try to extract that justice from foreigners. Or the hypocrisy of accepting the killing of innocent people as a reasonable cost of retaliation for the killing of innocent people. But you know that we do. The bombing of Nagasaki and Dresden are extreme examples of it. The argument is that it is for the greater good. In the situation we are in now, our side goes to extreme lengths not to involve non-combatants whilst admitting that some are inevitable. Our side does not deliberately target them and it makes doing so a war crime.
I guess if you support drone strikes in Syria then you would support them in your own neighbourhood should there be a suspected killer on the loose? No? Now that's just silly. We have other methods available to us on our own territory; extreme methods are not necessary, we only use the drones because they are the least worst option. But suppose there was a situation where the only way to prevent another twin towers was to shoot down the terrorists' plane over a populated area with the certainty of innocent deaths, but many less, what should be done? These are the sorts of moral issues we're dealing with. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
My point is simply that I don't know why we should be able to do things as a collective that we find to be immoral at the level of the individual. The notion that we shouldn't would have some strange consequences. For example, you'll have seen the classic bit of libertarian nonsense explaining how taxation is theft, on the basis that it would be if an individual did it. To take another example, if I were to decide you'd done something bad and needed to be punished, so I locked you up, that would be kidnapping. But when a society does it, it's called "justice" ... Something to think about.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
vimesey writes: OK, Cheney/Blair were criminals, yes, job done Splendid. Music to my ears.
vimesey writes: that involves not repeating the mistakes of the past if we can Splendid! That means not targeting innocent people which only creates more "terrorists." That is how we got here today.
vimesey writes: it also involves doing everything we can to stop a fresh evil. Of course. Thanks Vimesey.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
It seems you think I only want justice served in the White House? I assure you I want justice served everywhere, including the Middle East.
Targeting civilians is a war crime, no matter who does it or where. I only ask we not be hypocrites about it. That's what got us in this mess.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
1.61803 writes: ISIL has to be stopped. Why? Because they are fuckin stuff up and killing people and all manner of bad things. So, hypothetically, if the US was guilty of fuckin stuff up and killing people and all manner of bad things, like ISIL is doing, you would strongly urge similar consequences to the US, right?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dr Adequate writes:
I'm glad you have such complete inside information on what "they want".
They don't "want to help poor Muslims", they want to carry out the will of God as they understand it.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dr Adequate writes:
Non sequitur. The Nazis didn't want to die for their cause. They were reluctantly willing to risk their lives, just like the Allied troops were, just like the troops on both sides are in every war. In the case of Muslim terrorism, we have people who literally want to die. If you kill them, they win.
ringo writes:
And if the Nazis had thought they'd get 72 virgins if they died for Hitler, we should probably still have shot at them. When people want to die for their cause, killing them is not the way to defeat them.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dogmafood Member (Idle past 379 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
|
Fine, pacifism is an honourable, if naive, position. The thing that I like about pacifism is that the more people who practice it the better it works as contrasted with violence where the more people who practice it the worse it gets.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Diomedes writes:
No you're just channelling Faith.
Often times, we place political correctness on some sacrosanct pedestal and anyone that states something, even a basic fact, is immediately labeled as 'intolerant'. Diomedes writes:
That's a rather silly over-simplification. "Europe's society" is not monolithic. There are parts of Europe that are as bad as Saudi Arabia. Five minutes ago, there was a Communist bloc that was The Great Satan of the moment. Their secular values were called WORSE than religious hegemony at the time.
Europe's society is BETTER than that of Saudi Arabia. Diomedes writes:
Yes there is.
There is no debate here....
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
~1.6 writes:
And France, Russia and the USA had better get ready for wave after wave of new recruits and new terrorism.
Well they better get ready for some grade A encouragement in the coming weeks from France, Russia, and the USA.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dr Adequate writes:
Good for you. What changed?
I was passionately and vocally against the Iraq war. Dr Adequate writes:
We should avoid repeating the mistakes of Iraq. Defeating ISIS militarily will not put an end to terrorism any more than defeating Saddam Hussein did.
The question is: what should we do now?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
PT writes: The thing that I like about pacifism is that the more people who practice it the better it works as contrasted with violence where the more people who practice it the worse it gets. Sadly, it's never been proven to work has it? Over here we have the 'peace in our time' letter from Hitler to remind us that the bad guys don't feel the same way.
Chamberlain landed at Heston Aerodrome on 30 September 1938, and spoke to the crowds there: "The settlement of the Czechoslovakian problem, which has now been achieved is, in my view, only the prelude to a larger settlement in which all Europe may find peace. This morning I had another talk with the German Chancellor, Herr Hitler, and here is the paper which bears his name upon it as well as mine. Some of you, perhaps, have already heard what it contains but I would just like to read it to you: ' ... We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again.'[3]" Later that day he stood outside 10 Downing Street and again read from the document and concluded: "My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Using Hitler's duplicity as evidence that peace can not work when more people earnestly practice peace?
What is wrong with you?
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024