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Author | Topic: Another one that hurts | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
In your view, then, we should separate our analysis of ISIS when it supports and promotes terrorism in the West, from our analysis of it when it operates in its own back yard in Syria/Iraq ? Does that not lead to a severely selective conclusion ? The reasons an Iraqi Sunni might be motivated to ethnically cleanse their lands, raping and murdering along the way is likely to differ from the motivations of a Western Muslim radicalized into blowing themselves up in a Western city.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
1.61803 writes: ISIL has to be stopped. Why? Because they are fuckin stuff up and killing people and all manner of bad things. So, hypothetically, if the US was guilty of fuckin stuff up and killing people and all manner of bad things, like ISIL is doing, you would strongly urge similar consequences to the US, right?
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vimesey Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
But then we're being selective about analysing individuals within ISIS. (Quite apart from the fact that it is far from the case that it is exclusively Western Muslims who are carrying out terrorist attacks in the West). We read (and I find little reason to doubt) that the recent terrorist attacks in the West have been planned, funded, equipped and trained through ISIS or affiliated groups. To view those attacks as separated from the depravity which ISIS exhibits in Syria/Iraq is to paint a highly selective picture of those who carry out the attacks. It would be like focusing upon Halliburton's charitable donations (I'm assuming it makes some), whilst putting into a different box the billions it made from the Iraq war.
Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
But then we're being selective about analysing individuals within ISIS. Yes. This helps us say specific things in a discussion.
To view those attacks as separated from the depravity which ISIS exhibits in Syria/Iraq is to paint a highly selective picture of those who carry out the attacks. Painting a jihadist as not caring about life is a highly selective picture. It is, itself, groupish dehumanisation. It is also not true. Pointing out a way in which somebody's highly selective picture is so selective as to be wrong, is not grounds to accuse me of painting a selective picture.
It would be like focusing upon Halliburton's charitable donations (I'm assuming it makes some), whilst putting into a different box the billions it made from the Iraq war. It would be like calling all of Halliburton's, and it's subsidiaries' employees, evil because of the company's actions. We can discuss the situation in Syria if you like. I don't think they're cartoon evil baddies either and I think treating them as such doesn't seem like the path of least blood to me. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Percy writes: You can ignore me. I think your posts, and the communication it is generating, are on topic, so I will not ignore you, or will not discuss this through PM.
Percy writes: This isn't the topic I disagree. I've shown you evidence that supports the recent ISIL attack was precipitated by western criminal apathy and racism. Others on this forum have also shown that on-going racism and hypocrisy is impeding our understanding of ISIL's continuing attacks. And secondly, if your writing about baseless name-calling, I completely agree. However, when someone writes something blatantly racist or clearly hypocritical on the forum, we've always called them on it. How can a debate forum function without.
Percy writes: . . . supposedly immoral prime minister "Supposedly"? (See, if one says something really outrageous, it is called upon.)
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vimesey Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
I don't think they're cartoon evil baddies either and I think treating them as such doesn't seem like the path of least blood to me. I am hardly painting them as cartoon evil baddies - I am calling them the depraved and loathsome degenerates that the experiences of the Yazidis and gay people (along with countless others) demonstrate them to be. Cartoons they are not. Nevertheless, I would disagree with your conclusion. If we allow the sorts of rhetoric you quoted earlier (which paints terrorists as noble freedom fighters, with holy character and unassailable morality) to be separated from the amoral depravity that is the actual reality of the organisation which wants to recruit idealistic young potential bombers, then we make the job easier for them. If on the othrr hand we emphasise that the self-same ISIS which wants to give you your AK47s and IEDs is also raping, murdering, beating and torturing innocent people, including other Muslims, I suggest that the recruitment spiel becomes less attractive. Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
ProtoTypical writes: You cant execute doctors and aid workers under the banner of respect for life. I agree, you cannot respect life by murdering doctors.
quote:
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Nevertheless, I would disagree with your conclusion. My conclusion is that western suicide terrorists do indeed value life.
If we allow the sorts of rhetoric you quoted earlier (which paints terrorists as noble freedom fighters, with holy character and unassailable morality) to be separated from the amoral depravity that is the actual reality of the organisation which wants to recruit idealistic young potential bombers, then we make the job easier for them. I see you feel very strongly about this, but it doesn't seem relevant to what I was talking to Tangle about, namely that saying 'they' do not value life, citing, in part, their suicide attacks, is wrong. I am saying that this concept is 'cartoon evil baddy' imagery, that hinders rather than helps understanding our enemies and rationally constructing our response.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
vimesey writes: If on the othrr hand we emphasise that the self-same ISIS which wants to give you your AK47s and IEDs is also raping, murdering, beating and torturing innocent people, including other Muslims, I suggest that the recruitment spiel becomes less attractive. By the west uncritically embracing this notion, it allows the west to do similar atrocities and helps perpetuate future terrorist attacks:
quote: Edited by dronestar, : clarity
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
So, hypothetically, if the US was guilty of fuckin stuff up and killing people and all manner of bad things, like ISIL is doing, you would strongly urge similar consequences to the US, right? The US and it's allies are guilty of all manner of horrors going back through history yes its true. Most all countries have a horrid violent hegemonic past. Does that mean that today countries or terrorist now have a moral pass to do the same? Is that not a sophomoric attitude to hold? Your ability to sit back in your safe comfy home spewing pacifist simplistic diatribes on your computer is of course a direct result of someone else doing the very things you find abhorrent. Unless you are prepared to grow beans in your front yard and ride a bicycle or horse for transportation, while you eek out a self sustaining existence without the things that modern governments provide; it would seem your armchair insipid piety is also a exercise in hypocrisy. Edited by 1.61803, : add coma."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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vimesey Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
My conclusion is that western suicide terrorists do indeed value life. My apologies for not being clearer - I was referring to your conclusion that treating them as baddies (I prefer to say "part of a depraved organisation", but just because the word "baddies" utterly fails to capture it) is not the path to least blood. I am quite sure that a number of actual and potential recruits are idealistic and captivated by the sorts of rhetoric you've quoted. I don't think there is a lack of understanding of that. But I do not think that we assist ourselves by ignoring the murders, rapes, torture that ISIS is perpetrating. Again, there's nothing cartoon-like about it - it's really happening.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
My apologies for not being clearer - I was referring to your conclusion that treating them as baddies (I prefer to say "part of a depraved organisation", but just because the word "baddies" utterly fails to capture it) is not the path to least blood. Since you were attempting to be clear in this quote, I can only blame you for your equivocation within it. I made no such conclusion.
I am quite sure that a number of actual and potential recruits are idealistic and captivated by the sorts of rhetoric you've quoted. Which is evidence they are not cartoonish bad guys, but humans with complex motivations, including empathy for the loss of lives.
But I do not think that we assist ourselves by ignoring the murders, rapes, torture that ISIS is perpetrating. Nobody is doing such a thing.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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~1.6 writes:
I didn't say it was laudable. I said it was no different from bombing civilians. Suicide bombers, blowing themselves up because they are more committed to their causes is no more laudable than Hitlers cowardly act of shooting himself hunkering in a bunker. But of course it IS laudable to them and to their recruits, just like (oops) "accidentally" killing their wives and children is laudable to you.
~1.6 writes:
Yes, no doubt God is on your side. He was on your side during World War 2. He was on your side during World War 1. He was on your side during the genocide of Native Americans. He's always on your side because you're always right.
Whether you like it or not there is a right side and a wrong side.... ~1.6 writes:
I'm not legitimizing anybody. I'm demonizing both sides.
Fuck them and anyone who wants to legitimize them.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
1.61803 writes: Most all countries have a horrid violent hegemonic past. Yeah, way, way back in the distant, nearly unmemorable distant past, america had a hegemonic past.
1.61803 writes: Your ability to sit back in your safe comfy home spewing pacifist simplistic diatribes on your computer is of course a direct result of someone else doing the very things you find abhorrent. And conversely, my ability to travel effortlessly through airports, not have my phone or emails privacy violated, ability to travel to most parts of the world, and most importantly, not to financially support the murder of woman/children/civilians deaths are a direct result of someone else doing the very things humanity finds abhorrent. And apparentlly, even some in the military finds these things repugnant . . .
quote:Zcomm » Former Drone Operators Say They Were Horrified By Cruelty of Assassination Program
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Modulous writes: Do you suppose that once they are persuaded by the jihadists, they lose their emotions? To be persuaded enough to voluntarily behead someone then hang his body off a lamppost in the city square. Yes. Get them young enough and they will be indoctrinated into this death cult quite easily. You may have heard on the news today:
The Islamic State group on Thursday posted online a gruesome video showing six of its child soldiers killing Syrian security forces held captive by the jihadists. Titled "To the Sons of Jews," the slickly-produced video shows dozens of boys, who appeared to be about 10 years old, studying religious texts and learning hand-to-hand combat. Six of the boys are chosen by their instructor to "send a message" to IS's opponents by executing security forces held by the group. IS's "Cubs of the Caliphate" programme provides intense military and religious training to children throughout the jihadist group's areas of control in Syria. Although child soldiers have been typically used to man checkpoints or gather intelligence, IS has been increasingly using them to execute prisoners. In the video, each of the six selected boys is depicted individually running through a crumbling fortress, with dramatic music and grim action shots, until he finds a captive. Footage appears of each captive giving his name, his year of birth and describing his role in the security forces or in pro-government militia. The boys are then each shown killing the captives. Five are shot to death, and one has his throat slit. Good propaganda?
Only the likes of psychopaths really value life cheaply, and I would imagine they rarely kill themselves for causes. This is not from me and anyway we've done this - I thought we agreed that ISIS is not staffed solely by psychopaths...... Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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