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Author Topic:   Question: Why did animals have to die in the great flood?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 7 of 47 (786874)
06-28-2016 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
06-26-2016 5:50 AM


Symbolism and Metaphor
While many of the Biblical inerrency crowd insist--despite evidence to the contrary--that a global flood actually occurred, I prefer to view the whole story metaphorically.
I do have a few problems with the overall symbolism and/or metaphorical lessons that the story teaches, however.
Lets examine them in the context of what the bible actually says...we can speculate later.
Initially, the animals were supposedly created and the creative act was deemed "good".
Gen 1:24-25 writes:
And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. (NIV)
Humans were created and were given charge over the naming of these various animals.
Gen 2:19-20 writes:
Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
Supposedly, after the so-called Fall Of Man, the ground became cursed.
Gen 3:17 writes:
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
Since the animals were formed from the ground, perhaps all of creation thus became cursed, though this makes no sense to me. Seems as if God could have planned things better so as not to curse every darn thing due to the free will of innocent humans. Again, the story plot line is better understood symbolically and metaphorically rather than straight-up literally.
Many folks believe that the God mentioned in the Bible changes as humans grow and evolve. I prefer,however, to see the Creator of all seen and unseen as unchanging and eternally wise and omniscient. Such a Creator would make no mistakes and would allow parables, metaphors and symbolism to be written so as to teach the people certain precepts and lessons from the stories. That being said, I often wonder why God would have to use a flood to correct curses inflicted through the unwise choices of fallible humans.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Archangel, posted 06-26-2016 5:50 AM Archangel has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 10 of 47 (786877)
06-28-2016 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tangle
06-28-2016 6:31 PM


Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
Keep in mind, Tangle that this is a Bible Study and not a logical refutation of beliefs.
We know your position on the Bible as fiction, and you do have an otherwise logical argument. This topic, however, focuses on answering Archangels questions from the literature written about the beliefs and legends.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2016 6:31 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2016 6:41 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 13 of 47 (786880)
06-28-2016 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Tangle
06-28-2016 6:41 PM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
Assuming that Archangel believes God to be real...living and active not just through stories in a book but through everyday experience...it will be a challenge for any of us to explain why such parables,metaphors and symbolic passages make any sort of logical sense even given the concession that a Creator of all seen and unseen exists.
You of course explain the answer as the "fact" that there is no God. Given that this is unprovable either way, and given the fact that this is a Bible Study Forum---let us make a case pro or con based on the good old book.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2016 6:41 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 06-28-2016 9:25 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 14 of 47 (786881)
06-28-2016 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tangle
06-28-2016 6:38 PM


Judging The Judge
Even if true it would have been an act of barbarism unsurpassed by anything in human imaginings
Since when do created beings get to judge god? (I know jar will point out that the Bible proves that we do and should do such a thing, but he is hopelessly influence by Judaism.)
Gen 5:1 writes:
When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
Thus humans lived a life in the likeness of a Creator of all seen and unseen. We too attempt to create through invention, innovation, advances in scientific disciplines and study of the universe as well as our inner universe. We judge and determine whether or not God even exists. We define the rational course of worldview and thought for all of our species and offspring.
Many otherwise enlightened thinkers of the present era have many explanations of human evolution and behavior that leave the entire belief in God out of the equation.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2016 6:38 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 20 of 47 (786888)
06-28-2016 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
06-28-2016 9:25 PM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
so in your opinion and belief many of the biblical stories were not inspired by anything other than humans trying to survive by telling stories? No wonder you think that GOD is eternally unknowable.
The issue in my mind is whether GOD has ever interacted with humanity...such as the tablets on the mountain...or whether that too was a story invented by humans to control/influence/impress other humans.
Of course the evidence shows that the great flood was a myth. It is a relief to me, since a GOD that would have to allow such an event would be in my mind rather limited.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 06-28-2016 9:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 06-29-2016 12:09 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 32 of 47 (786943)
06-29-2016 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Diomedes
06-29-2016 10:45 AM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
jar writes:
The two Biblical Flood myths serve a purpose, of a God that regrets creating life and so purges it saving only the select few; the Chosen Ones; a who then later swears to never repeat that act of wanton destruction. It's a very human God, similar to all other rulers, capricious and destructive but then returning to rationality. And it allowed a people to claim preference and superiority; from the God they created if not from the rest of the world, the universe and reality.
You have a point. What I'm attempting to do is to support my belief that GOD is not simply a story invented by humanity.
Larni writes:
To believe in the God of the Bible (rather than cherry picking the bits of his character that fit with one's own expectations) is to take the rough with the smooth.
True. I need to do more reading to see if i can support my primary assertion.
Diomedes writes:
The stories of Gilgamesh were passed down through the centuries, along with stories and myths from other sources and eventually morphed into the biblical stories.
Point taken.
There are other explanations and views, however.
compellingtruth.org writes:
The biblical flood story, found in Genesis 6-9, has many similarities. In both cases, it was a global flood sent by God or gods to control people. God or gods contacted the hero and told him to build an ark of wood covered in pitch. The ark was very large and contained specimens of all animals. The hero determined the end of the ordeal by sending out birds. When the inhabitants of the ark were released, the hero sacrificed to God/the gods, who blessed him.
There are differences, as well. Of course, the Genesis story speaks of God, while the Akkadian mentions several gods. The Akkadian ark was square, while the biblical ark was rectangular. The Akkadian hero saved not only his family, but craftsmen who worked on the ark as well. The biblical rains lasted forty days and nights, while the Akkadian version says six. And the arks landed on different mountains.
What is the relationship between the Akkadian flood myths and the biblical account? Scholars aren't exactly sure. Secular scholars claim that because remnants of the Akkadian account pre-date the writing of Genesis, Moses (or another author) copied from the Akkadian story. But biblical scholars point out that there is no record of a complete flood myth until 650 BC, long after Genesis was written. Other scholars claim that the Akkadian myth copied Genesis, but this is highly unlikely. Genesis was written by 1400 BC while the first Gilgamesh story that references the global flood was apparently from 2100 BC. It's much more probable that both stories derived from the same sourcean actual global flood.
For those of us that are non-believers, I simply look at these as stories. Either completely made up or derived from actual events and then exaggerated or modified to fit the current narrative.
For those of us who are believers, as i am, it is a challenge and a duty to attempt to see if i can actually get inspiration from the stories and if the inspiration is more than simple human-derived stories.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Diomedes, posted 06-29-2016 10:45 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by PaulK, posted 06-29-2016 4:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 35 by Diomedes, posted 06-29-2016 4:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 33 of 47 (786944)
06-29-2016 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
06-29-2016 12:09 AM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
jar writes:
So far the evidence is that most of the Bible stories are folk tales. The Flood never happened, Exodus never happened, the Conquest of Canaan never happened, there was no Garden of Eden, but that does not mean there is not things to be learned from the stories.
I am interested in learning from GOD, however...not from human foibles. (which i can also learn from...but my point is that I believe GOD speaks to humanity. I am just trying to prove it)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 06-29-2016 12:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 06-29-2016 5:31 PM Phat has not replied

  
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